Mauser M 1871 -84

[Mauser]

Are there any one who has experience shootin paper patched bullets with Mauser M 1871-84.

Bullet dimensions and loadings.

[GJ]

Hi Mauser,

I have two 71/84 Mausers but have only shot them with the RCBS bullet.
However I have a faint recolection of an article in the British Magazine "Classic Arms & Militaria" about 10 years ago where there was a very good article on
this subject by Guy and Leonard A.-R. West attempting to duplicate the original loading with paper patched bullets. All these old magazines are in the attic
and I will search for the relevant issue when I go to bring the Christmas tree down!

The A.-R. Wests are experts on getting these old guns to shoot.

There have been articles on the Snider, Martini-Henry, French Trabatier, Italian Veterelli and even the German Needle Gun and the Chassepot. I hope that I have spelled all these names correctly!

Gwyn Jones

[Mauser]

Thanks.
I do have 10 those military rifles and biggest difficulty is to dind the correct size of bullet to avoid blow by.

Replica brass have too big wall thickness compared original ones.
this means you can not have big enough bullets to bras.
I have not get reasonable cod neck turner in markets. I have made my own design what is now under construction.
with proto I get 0.15 mm wall thickness What is suittable nearly all rifles in that era.

Only problem is Berdan II. according my measurings wall thicknes for it should be 0.125 mm. if you are able to collect this kind of info from those magasins I'll be happy
pro

[Fabian23]

G.A.R. West is/are still posting over on Gunboards.com if you need to get in contact.

[tommy303]

From an original 1885 round in my collection, the bullet is just a shade over 1-inch long, with a diameter of .429-inch unpatched, and .439-inch patched.  Weight is 390-grs. with the paper patch.  While I did not pull the wad and weight the charge, Fred Datig lists the original charge as 77.2-grs of black powder.


thomas.

[GJ]

Here is the information from the A.R.Wests.

They had an original style mould from Modern & Antique Firearms, 147, Tucton Road, Southbourne, Bournemouth,BH16 3JZ,

U.K.
Dimentions
Length 26.4mm : Diameter 11mm : Flat point diam. 6.7mm  : Base cavity 7mm wide by 1mm deep : Weight 25.3 grams : Diam. when patched 11.26mm.

The patch is a rhombus 70.5mm by 30mm withan angle of 70 degrees. A line is marked along the middle, parallel with the long sides, 15mm from either edge. this is used to locate the base of the bullet when wrapping the patch. This leaves about 15mm to be twisted in the same direction as the patch. When dry it is trimmed close to the bullet's base and pushed into the cavity.

A grease wad 3.5mm thick, sandwiched between two thin card wads, is loaded between the powder and the bullet. When loaded the cartridge can be dipped up to the case neck in bullet lube prior to shooting.

The official charge of black powder was 5 grams (77.17 grains) but weighed examples averaged 4.6 grams (71 grains). In a later article Volume8 no. 4 FO Triangle powder was found to be very similar to the original powder used.

Gwyn Jones

Ps. This information was from the May, June and July 1994 issues of "Classic Arms" and may well be dated by now.
GJ

[Mauser]

This information I have measured fom original paperpatched patron.
Made in 1884 in Erfurt.

Bullet Ø   BØ   11,24   Total length   TL 76,85
Mouth Ø   MØ   11,80   Case length   CL   60,19
Neck Ø   NØ   11,80   Neck length   NL   19,60
Should. Ø   SØ   12,96   

Should. length   SL   37,50
Head Ø   HØ   13,40   Rim thickness   RT   2,32
Rim Ø   RØ   14,85         

I have used 10.84 bullet diameter and weight 350 grains
Paper 3 x 0.06 mm total diameter 11.20 mm.
loadings 57 grains swiss # 3.
reultats are not bad but some blow by.



some day it works some not.

I have measured my rifle and grove diameter is 11.35 mm and the small caliber is 19.97 mm

I have ordered tools to make 11.0 mm bullets and you answer was cod for me.
Thanks alot I beleave that next season I can have

better resultats.
Paavo

[tommy303]

What type of alloy are you using in your bullets and what kind of paper are you using for the patch?

[Mauser]

Hi
alloy is from bullets of comprss air pistols so nearly pure lead.
Hardness ab. 5 BHN.
Paper is pure cotton " onion skin" 0.06 mm

thicknes.

[tommy303]

That sounds like a good combination to me.  I like to use a beeswax disk between two thin cork disks as the wad.  I rarely have much blow by trouble with that combination.

[Mauser]

Hi
DO NOT USE BEEWAX you spoil you barrel with it.
IT IS AS BAD AS

LEAD.wery difficult get off.
Wax used in original loadings was to avoid blow by.
There are several reasons blow by.
Bullet dimension with the paper should be same as growe caliber.
for ex growe caliber 11.30 mm  2 rounds 0.06 mm onion skin is 0.24 mm what means lead bullet dimension 11.06 mm.

Wall thicknes of the neck should be 0.2 mm as original shell.
Replica shells it is 0.3... eaven 0.4 mm and this means you can not put the patched bullet to shell.

Also wall thicknes is not symmetric. one side could be 0.23 mm and other side 0.40 mm Grove hight is 0.18 mm. this means there are posibility blow by.

You need neck turner for trimming you shells. By the best in the market.

 What for you need wax wad. ???If you lubricate the bullet.

[Fabian23]

I use a 50/50 mix of Beeswax and solid vegetable fat for all by BP muzzleloaders and cartridge loaders as lubricant.  I have never had any trouble with cleaning out barrels after a shoot.

[Mauser]

That is ok
Pure beewax :angry:

[tommy303]

I live in Arizona where temperatures are frequently 40*C and pure beeswax as an over powder wad (sandwiched in between two disks of cardboard or cork)works well, while beeswax/vegetable oil mixes tend to contaminate the powder if the oil sweats out of the wax.  For muzzle loaders, though, I mix corn oil or peanut oil into the wax to keep it soft.

In the 50 years I have been shooting BP I have not had any major cleaning problems with either one.

[Mauser]

my experience is from finland and we have max temperature + 30
normal is under +20 and + 15 is common some times we shoot +/- 0 degtee celsius.
pure beewax stick to groowes and it is really difficult to get off.

50/50 mixture is probably cod.
I do not use any wax. I only greece the bullet by " bore butter " against powder

I use 2 mm vad. for softening the fouling I use blow tube.

[tommy303]

We seem to be at the opposite ends of the weather spectrum.  Here high temperatures and low humidity makes for some very hard powder fouling.  The beeswax disk does seem to help under our conditions, but I can see in lower
temperatures how it could contribute to fouling as you have experienced.  lubricant in the grooves to keep the fouling soft.  When using bullets having
cannalures, I use only a card or cork disk over the powder and fill the cannalures with a softer beeswax/tallow or beeswax vegitable oil mixture.  

I have not tried too many of the commercial products, like bore butter, though I should perhaps give some of them a try.  For some reason or another I seem to
have gotten into making my own lubes--possibly force of habit since when I started black powder shooting fifty years ago, one could not buy such items and
had to experiment around and make one's own.

[jæger justnæs]

This is what makes this sport so interesting; each weapon (and owner) have individual preferences. In addition, weather conditions might have great effect on the ballistics and/or powder fouling. A good load discovered during a humid autumn's evening might not work well during a hot and dry summer's day.

Very kind of you to share your experiences. This keeps us all on our toes:-)

[Mauser]

Hi

Mayby I have to explain more of beeswax case. I cot my mauser 2006 and in the autumn the trimming was made and result was as early show.

spring 2007 results star to be not acceptable and finally disaster.
Same happens my New relica 45-90 rifle ( only replica ) middle of summer groups were 50 mm / 100 m. after that same happened as Mauser.

Finally I realise something wrong in barrel. And finally it was beeswax. Cleaning of the barrel was difficult and I do not want to do it again.

What happened.
Cold barrel and cooling it by blowing and beeswax slouly accumulate to barrel.

What to do for nex season
1. Bullet dimension has been too smal 10.84 mm have to be 11.0 mm + paper 0.06 mm mean 11.24 mm final dimenssion.
2.wallthickness of neck should be as original 0.2 mm
shells made from 348 win walthickness is 0.35 .. 0.4 mm and not symmetrical
Neck turner is needed.Space is needed for bullet to expand to the growed diameter inside the neck.
Black powder is equal Dynamite.
3. No pure beeswax.
4. paperpatched bullet lubricated for ex. borebutter or equal.

Pls inform if I am wrong

[tommy303]

Back in 1964 I went on a hunting trip up in northern British Columbia.  One interesting point was that I had sighted-in my rifle in Phoenix, but found I needed to re-sight in again up where I was hunting, as different weather conditions, differing barometric pressures, lower temperature, etc. conspired to change the point of impact by a considerable amount.  So yes, those and other changes in shooting environment can make a difference in what works well and what doesn't.  

I can certainly see how pure beeswax might gum up a barrel in extremely cold conditions while in very hot climates, the effects might not even be noticed at all.  My own rule of thumb for muzzle loading is to use a thinner wax based grease in cold weather and a thicker one in hot.  For cartridge guns, I prefer a slightly stiffer lube for cannelured bullet than I would employ in muzzle loaders.

[tommy303]

> 4. paperpatched bullet lubricated for ex. borebutter or equal.
>
> Pls inform if I am wrong

You could well be on the right track.  I knew a lot of old time shooters, some of whom went back to the very early 1900s or even the late 1800s, who would dip their paper patched bullets, and even plain lead bullets, in a thin grease to reduce fouling if they were going to be firing more than one or two rounds.