05. December 2021 kl. 5:53:55
forum.svartkrutt.net

Author Topic: Swedish M1851 Kammerlader remaking a nipple.  (Read 1009 times)

12. August 2021 kl. 10:59:15
Read 1009 times

ironoxide


Time has come for me to remake the nipple on my "sporterised" M1851 Kammerlader. There is another thread on this forum with pictures very helpful for anyone wanting to recreate a nipple as close as possible to the original.

However, I have few questions to Kammerlader owners and researchers :-)

Could one of the owners please measure external dimensions of the nipple (with dial calipers or a micrometer) and post them here? Estimating based on pictures is not as good as actual measurements.

What is the original nipple thread? By my measurements it appears to be M8x1.25. I have a model made in Liege. They did use a metric system there. Is it likely they would make it in metric, or is it just the closest approximation of the original units.

I have the book. Unfortunately the dimensions in the plans are not readable :-(


Øyvind if you are reading this, is it possible to obtain the original file in high resolution to read the dimensions?

What caps should I make the nipple to fit? Based on the other thread the original works with 6 leaf musket caps. Those are pretty rare, fairly expensive and an overkill in my opinion for igniting a charge through such a straight and short flash channel. Or is the extra strength really required?

I'm leaning towards making it for 4 leaf musket caps as a thin one made for #11 caps woukd just look silly.

Finally, I believe I read in Øyvind's book a mention of an extra copper disk providing extra sealing under a nipple in (possibly some) Kammerlader's. However, I don't speak Norwegian and I'm using Google translate with automatic OCR on my phone to read it so certain things may have been mistranslated.

The original nipple seat does look like it could accommodate a copper washer, but pictures of original nipples I saw have no shoulder required to seat the washer. Can anyone resolve this seeing inconsistency?

Thanks for reading :-)



12. August 2021 kl. 11:37:46
Reply #1

Øyvind F.

Administrator
The drawing is for the Norwegian models and I doubt the Norwegian nipples are interchangeable with the Swedish. Have you checked with http://sixgun.se?

You can buy a replica nipple for the Norwegian kammerlader here, made to fit modern musket caps: https://svartkrutt.net/shop/no/kammerladertilbehor/162-kammerladerpistong.html (English version: https://svartkrutt.net/shop/en/kammerlader-accessories/162-kammerladersikte.html)

I can't remember writing anything about copper washers. It was certainly not used in originals.
Øyvind F. - forum admin
Ta også en kikk på kammerlader.no.

12. August 2021 kl. 12:06:51
Reply #2

Cap'n Redneck


https://forum.svartkrutt.net/index.php?topic=28271.0

In the above link "Chrom" shows how to expand the threads of a regular M8 bolt of 8.8 hardness to 8,3mm by drilling a hole through the bolt, and then pressing a well greased conical rod of hardened steel into the M8 bolt.
(this procedure applies to a Norwegian kammerlader nipple.)

Hopefully some of the M1851 Swedish kammerlader owners & shooters will chime in with specific info...
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

12. August 2021 kl. 15:10:36
Reply #3

ironoxide


The drawing is for the Norwegian models and I doubt the Norwegian nipples are interchangeable with the Swedish. Have you checked with http://sixgun.se?

You can buy a replica nipple for the Norwegian kammerlader here, made to fit modern musket caps: https://svartkrutt.net/shop/no/kammerladertilbehor/162-kammerladerpistong.html (English version: https://svartkrutt.net/shop/en/kammerlader-accessories/162-kammerladersikte.html)

I can't remember writing anything about copper washers. It was certainly not used in originals.

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding copper washers, I must have confused it with something else or it is a result of mistranslation.

Do you mind saying what is the original source of that plan? (even though it is a Norwegian kammerlader) I would love to have a copy. I have a poster sized product idea for you. I would definitely buy one :-)

The shop catalog you linked to shows different product numbers for different Kammerlader models nipples. I think you're right they are not interchangeable between Swedish and Norwegian guns.

Thanks for linking to the shop. However for me, having access to a well equipped machine shop, ordering one from abroad makes little sense. That's one of the reasons to make one rather than buy.

https://forum.svartkrutt.net/index.php?topic=28271.0

In the above link "Chrom" shows how to expand the threads of a regular M8 bolt of 8.8 hardness to 8,3mm by drilling a hole through the bolt, and then pressing a well greased conical rod of hardened steel into the M8 bolt.
(this procedure applies to a Norwegian kammerlader nipple.)

Hopefully some of the M1851 Swedish kammerlader owners & shooters will chime in with specific info...

This is interesting. In my M1851 an M8x1. 25 bolt seemed to fit normally. I didn't notice any excessive wiggle room. Perhaps wear (or lack of it) is a factor too.

I measured the thread pitch with a thread gauge and 1.25 must be extremely close to the original measure. However there are only about 4 threads so a slight error may be unnoticeable.

I have a lathe so I could turn an M8*1.25 slightly oversize, but I prefer to use a die when possible of course :-) I'll remeasure it.

I also noticed the shop you linked to describes the nipples they sell as hardened. This is the first I hear about hardened nipples (other than diy made). I have the means to make one from carbon steel and to harden it, but I'm not sure it is a good idea to do so.

Were original nipples hardened? I imagine if for some reason a nipple seized in its threads I would much prefer to destroy a soft nipple rather than it chewing the seat threads. Best of both worlds could be to harden just the cone where the cap sits.

In my Kammerlader the hammer already looks slightly damaged as if it hit something hard. Maybe that's some evidence of there being hardened nipples used in the past.

On all my modern replica guns nipples are either soft steel or phosphor-bronze.

What are your experiences, is hardened nipple a requirement with Kammerladers? (due to main spring strength perhaps)


12. August 2021 kl. 16:00:40
Reply #4

ironoxide


I found the bit about the copper washer. Page 128. 2nd number on the list. Looks like this in the book.


I don't speak Norwegian so I have to rely on translation. This is how Google translated this bit.


If this is a wrong translation at least we know where it came from :-)

Also regarding nipples in the other thread and those linked to. They appear to be wrong shape for the Swedish M1851.

Look at the nipple seat on my gun


It looks as if the nipple should have a shoulder similar to a nipple that came with my gun.


I initially thought this nipple that came with my gun was diy made, but I've since found another picture of an original M1851 with chamber open where the nipple appears to be the same shape.

I wonder how the nipple sold by sixgun.se looks like. There are no photos in their catalogue. Just a table.



12. August 2021 kl. 17:22:23
Reply #5

Øyvind F.

Administrator
You're right about the copper disc, I was thinking about Norwegian kammerlader rifles. I don't know whether the Swedish rifles were actually equipped with this disc though. They may have found it to be redundant.
Øyvind F. - forum admin
Ta også en kikk på kammerlader.no.

12. August 2021 kl. 20:43:52
Reply #6

Torgeir


This is the nipple sold by Sixgun.se. It takes rws 1081 caps and is 16 mm long minus threads. It is great quality.
« Last Edit: 12. August 2021 kl. 20:50:42 by Torgeir »
Torgeir

12. August 2021 kl. 22:42:00
Reply #7

ironoxide


This is the nipple sold by Sixgun.se. It takes rws 1081 caps and is 16 mm long minus threads. It is great quality.

Thanks for the picture. Interesting how long it is. Do you think it has to be that long? I'm half way done with my nipple and as the upper part of the original is missing I'm currently making it as 12mm minus the threads.

I wonder how did they decide on such a long design

BTW, I've sent you a PM :-)

13. August 2021 kl. 9:18:02
Reply #8

Torgeir


The length of the nipple is related to the geometry of the hammer. With this nipple-length the hammer on my gun hits the nipple at an approximate 90 degrees angle. Now you're going to find out if a 12 mm nipple works just as well.  ;)
Torgeir

13. August 2021 kl. 18:45:04
Reply #9

ironoxide


The length of the nipple is related to the geometry of the hammer. With this nipple-length the hammer on my gun hits the nipple at an approximate 90 degrees angle. Now you're going to find out if a 12 mm nipple works just as well.  ;)

It works :-)

However, I found out very quickly why people behind sixgun.se decide on 16mm length. With my nipple that protrudes 12mm it looks like it is almost impossible to put the cap on after closing the breech (from the bottom). That would be a safe way of doing it in modern times.

An easy way is to do it the original way of putting the nipple on while the breech is open. However, it makes my "safety sense" a bit uneasy to put a nipple on a loaded chamber, cock the hammer and then close it... I'll see how it goes once I take the gun to the range and if it is really difficult I'll make a longer one.

Here are few pictures of the nipple. As you can see I decided to try the copper disc/washer. An 8x12x1mm washer fits ideally :-) I knurled the cone part of the nipple not to make it pretty, but I happened to cut it and then discover caps were falling off. Knurling took care of it. Now caps are very secure.

Also few things about my rifle. From the book I learned how the click leather is supposed to work on M1851. Unfortunately my gun is missing the brass/bronze nuts. Instead someone very precisely glued in walnut pegs :-(

Also as a part of the whole sporterising process the same person glued in a piece of walnut into the cavity that used to contain the barrel band spring. There is no barrel band and the barrel is held in place by what looks like a home made nail (kinda squarish). I have to think about all of this before I shoot the gun. The whole thing feels surprisingly secure.If I decide to shoot it in this configuration I'll start with low charges and see if there is no extra stress on the stock where the nail is. In future I'll definitely not be cutting out the inlays this other person did, but I may make a barrel band with an integrated pin just to make it more secure.

Here are few pictures of the nipple I made, the copper washer, and the chamber opened after first cap was popped.











13. August 2021 kl. 19:24:39
Reply #10

Øyvind F.

Administrator
Nice job! But note that the book says the copper disc was placed under the nipple. I guess the main purpose was to prevent erosion of the nipple and especially the flash hole. I have used the same concept in my .451" Whitworth and it greatly enhances nipple life. Without the disc it only takes a few shots before the nipple is ruined. You won't experience the same kind of erosion in your kammerlader though, the Whitworth is a whole different story.

Here is the copper disc in my Whitworth:


New unfired Whitworth nipple to the left and one which is fired 28 times to the right:


Pictures from this thread: https://forum.svartkrutt.net/index.php?topic=10812.0
Øyvind F. - forum admin
Ta også en kikk på kammerlader.no.

13. August 2021 kl. 20:56:04
Reply #11

ironoxide


Wow, I never realised the extent of erosion in high pressure muzzleloaders like the Whitworth.

Regarding the copper disk Thanks to your photo I understand it now. Thanks. :-)

Interestingly when I was cleaning the nipple hole on my M1851 there was "strange" green stuff there. The whole breech is of course made of steel, but that green stuff looked like corrosion that you get on copper. Also the nipple hole is pretty shallow. About 4 threads. I wonder if I should try to pick on the bottom of that hole with a dental pick. Perhaps there is an original copper disc(just corroded) there like what you've shown on your Whitworth.

I'll change ithe nipple design when I'm making a longer one.

It is surprising that copper limits the erosion amount. Have you ever tried a bronze nipple(without the copper disk) in your Whitworth? I would be interested in finding out if bronze is resistant to it. BTW I heard in some original high end guns they used platinum lined nipples to limit erosion

Regarding the barrel pin, I think it'll be fine. I managed to get few test shots before the sunset today and it felt solid (with a light load of 60grains of 2f for a start).

13. August 2021 kl. 23:43:41
Reply #12

Cap'n Redneck


(I'm also a replica Whitworth owner.)
The copper disc at the bottom of the nipple hole does not limit the amount of erosion in the flashhole of the nipple, it does however keep the hot gases from eroding the male threads of the nipple and the female threads of the gun.  There are several instances of nipple-threads that have been eroded so badly that the nipple itself has been shot out of the gun...
The beryllium-bronze nipples have so far been the best option for "high-power" blackpowder rifle shooters.
I believe I've read / heard that platinum lined nipples are available again, but at a price that is abhorrent for us casual shooters...
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

15. August 2021 kl. 0:34:03
Reply #13

ironoxide


Thanks Cap'n Redneck. This makes sense.

Indeed there is a copper disc already installed in my M1851 Kammerlader. It looks brazed or pressed in. I only noticed it after thorough cleanup. See below.



Also, I always thought Kammerladers had hexagonal rifling similar to the Whitworth. It turns out that is not exactly true. It looks hexagonal when looking at the muzzle, but true shape is revealed once a slightly oversize pure lead bullet is pounded through the barrel bore. Have a look at the result.




You can't tell by looking at this photo, but that's the best I took. Tops of the lands are hexagonal, but bottoms of grooves are round. Very interesting. The dimensions are. 14.8mm(0.582in) across flats and 15.4mm(0.606) across groove bottoms.

This bullet is a Pedersoli 0.58in Minie given few whacks with a hammer to make it bigger.
.

15. August 2021 kl. 2:18:19
Reply #14

Cap'n Redneck


The early, big bore (18 lødig) Norwegian kammerladers (made ca. 1842-59) had conventional rifling and a cylindrical, smooth chamber.
The later, small bore (4 linjer) Norwegian kammerladers (made ca. 1860-67) had hexagonal Whitworth rifling, including the chamber.
I guess the Swedes opted for something-in-between...
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......