08. December 2021 kl. 19:20:08
forum.svartkrutt.net

Author Topic: 8x58RD Rolling Block serial numbers  (Read 2124 times)

04. April 2021 kl. 11:31:21
Read 2124 times

b75d


Hi All,

Since my previous post is deleted (probably because I mentioned the other powder type besides blackpowder, sorry for that dear Admins) I'm looking for a reliable source for Danish Rolling Block 8x58RD serialnumbers. There seems to be converted and non converted rifles?
Who can help me out with more information on the rifles itself? I've found enough information about the 8x58RD caliber but not on the rifles.

With kind regards,
Boris
« Last Edit: 04. April 2021 kl. 13:13:52 by Øyvind F. »

06. April 2021 kl. 8:33:03
Reply #1

Vidar


The best source of information on the Danish Remington Rolling Block rifles and carbines is the 1984 yearbook from the Danish Arms & Armour Society. Their club magazine has editors for different time periods, and for 1848-1890, it's Lars Neumann:   larsneumann@me.com

Another source is the book Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World, by George Layman.

06. April 2021 kl. 10:16:14
Reply #2

b75d


Hi Vidar,

Thank for pointing me in the right direction.

Regards,
Boris

06. April 2021 kl. 12:34:48
Reply #3

Torgeir


I am in possession of the said yearbook from 1984. It makes no mention of Danish military rolling blocks in this caliber. It does however extensively describe how the Danish military rolling blocks  were converted from a 11,7 mm black powder rimfire case to a longer centerfired smokeless round in the same caliber. The designation for this caliber varies, but it is often called 11,7 X 51R. And the rifles thus converted are designatet M 1867/97.
I have yet to come across a Danish rolling block in 8X58 RD. There are however plenty of Swedish rolling blocks on the market in this caliber.

Regards: Torgeir
Torgeir

06. April 2021 kl. 12:44:10
Reply #4

b75d


Hello Togeir,

Thank you for your comments. The rifle has a crown and C on the top barrel close to the receiver/chamber. It was told that this was a Danish RB? So it might be a Swedish instead? If it has a low serial like XX40 on the left side and converted to a sporter/hunting rifle. The right side doesn't has a serial with /90-91-92-93-94-95-96 on it, like the converted ones. Is it still an blackpowder only rifle or already converted to handle the more powerfull 8x58R?

I like to now because local laws allow me to own "blackpowder only". The converted nitro ones are restricted.

Thanks,
Boris

06. April 2021 kl. 13:09:33
Reply #5

Torgeir


Well, yes: Most probably Swedish. The crowned C is the stamp of Carl Gustafs Stads Gevärsfaktori, and I suspect the barrel is octagon at the rear?
Whether 8X58 RD is "black powder only" is debatable at best. It is probably enough said that it is not allowed in blackpowder competition here in Norway. Others here are more knowledgeable about this.

Regards: Torgeir
Torgeir

06. April 2021 kl. 13:33:53
Reply #6

Torgeir


And by the way: Are you even sure it is chambered in 8X58RD?
Torgeir

06. April 2021 kl. 14:19:05
Reply #7

Vidar


According to the Swedish book Eldhandvapen II, by Josef Alm, the Swedish Remington rolling block rifles 1867-89 used black powder cartridges until 1892. These cartridges were loaded with 4,7 g compressed black powder and a 15,5 g jacketed bullet.

06. April 2021 kl. 15:22:45
Reply #8

b75d


And by the way: Are you even sure it is chambered in 8X58RD?
Hi Torgeir,
The rifle is indeed 8X58R. And yes the barrel is octagon at the rear. Also I see a difference in the breechlock. See attached photos. One is rounded the other one is squared?

10. April 2021 kl. 7:19:55
Reply #9

rolly


Hi Boris,

in most european countries 8x58 is not considered a black powder cartridge.

almost all factory 8x58 rolling blocks were made after 1891, and the conversion of older rolling blocks to 8x58 were also done after 1891.

in norway kongsberg made the M1888 karbine in 8x58, but this was only from 1888 to 1891 and only between 918 and 1185 were made.
after that they made the M1891 karbine in 8x58 from 1891 to 1897 and only between 3808 and 3902 were made.

in sweden i doubt they started earlier than 1890.
if it has no conversion markings and no "N" stamp on the breech block i would say it is a civilian conversion done by a regular gunsmith many years after 1890.
many swedish rolling blocks were converted into all kinds of cartridges around the time smokeless cartridges became more available to most civilians and at the time when black powder cartridges became obsolete.
people didnt really know the black powder rifles weren't safe to use with modern ammo so they just converted and tried. this is the reason you will find many black powder rifles and shotguns with battered actions.

to be safe both on the shooting side and the law side i recommend to look for a rolling block with a proper date stamp, in one of the original black powder calibers.

11. April 2021 kl. 12:10:47
Reply #10

b75d


Hi Rolly,
Thanks for the information. I really want to be on the safe side. That's why I posted all the questions. Is there a difference in the breechblock/lock to tell if it's a blackpoweder only or converted rifle?

Thanks,
Boris

11. April 2021 kl. 13:07:58
Reply #11

Roy-Terje Kjoberg


The converted rifles are marked on the chamber as seen below.
Mer samler enn skytter.

11. April 2021 kl. 16:24:13
Reply #12

b75d


Hello Roy-Terje,

Thank you for the clear picture. I've seen the rifles with the serial/conversion date. It's almost 100% sure that these are proofed/able for the more powerfull 8x58RD round (smokeless powder). Can I make the conclusion that rifles without this number (serial/conversion date) are blackpowder only rifles? Or are there also converted rifles withour a serial/conversion date on the barrel? I'm also wondering if the breechlock handle is an indicator of conversion (or not).

Anyway thank you all for the information so far. Hope to get a bit more still....  8)

Regards,
Boris

11. April 2021 kl. 17:23:04
Reply #13

Cap'n Redneck


The long, rounded breechblock handle is original to the Swedish military M1889 8x58RD rifles. 
They also come with a curved cartridge extractor that curls down into the receiver.
(The squared-off breechblock handle you show a picture of is a civilian modification of the M1889.)

The M1867 blackpowder-only Rollingblocks will have a much shorter breechblock handle, and the old-style sliding cartridge extractor on the left-hand side of the chamber.


Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

11. April 2021 kl. 18:48:19
Reply #14

b75d


Hi Cap'n Redneck,

That's the information I was looking for! Both rifles have the curved extractor that sinks into the receiver. The one without the serial/conversion date on the chamber/barrel and with the squared off breechblock handle is probably a smokeless rifle too then?

Thank you,
Boris

11. April 2021 kl. 21:12:23
Reply #15

Cap'n Redneck


Yes. 
Perhaps the original military barrel was worn out, and a new unmarked one was ordered from the Carl Gustaf Stads factory at some time.  Or perhaps the man in charge of marking barrels back in the early 1890s had a slip-up...

The sporterized M1889's make good candidates for rebarreling to .45-70 or .45-90.
Inletting the extractor into the new barrel is a bit tricky, so consult a gunsmith first.
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

15. April 2021 kl. 20:08:21
Reply #16

b75d


Hi Cap'n Redneck,

Thank you for all the information. I will continue the search for a real 100% blackpowder one. If they are still available....

Regards,
Boris