29. September 2021 kl. 3:35:01
forum.svartkrutt.net

Author Topic: Swedish M1851 Kammerlader with missing parts.  (Read 3440 times)

17. September 2019 kl. 14:02:35
Read 3440 times

ironoxide


Hi,

I'm new on the board. I'm interested in older black powder weapons and I managed to buy a Swedish Kammerlader M1851 for a very good price. Unfortunately, the price was good because the gun is incomplete. Specifically someone has shortened the stock to 5cm beyond the first barrel band and the gun is missing two barrel bands, two barrel band retaining springs and the forward part of the stock. I'm planning to restore the missing parts and I hope I'll be able to get information about those items from other Kammerlader owners to make it as close to the original as possible.

I have a well equipped hobby metalworking workshop and I have quite a bit of experience working with metal, but working with wood is quite new to me. So before I work on the Kammerlader I'm repairing another gun's broken stock to gain some experience.

I have collected a number of photos of rifles with my missing parts, but I could really use some photos that show just the Swedish Kammerlader barrel bands removed from the rifle and placed on millimeter paper(pictured from the front), and a photo showing the rifle looking into the bore and the front of the stock. I would be very grateful if another M1851 owner could take few photos like this. There is a Youtube video showing another model's barrel bands and springs in detail, but no Swedish M1851. I think it would be a shame to leave this rifle in the current sorry state.

I'm currently waiting for my rifle to arrive. I'll post some photos of it when it arrives in few days.

19. September 2019 kl. 10:15:01
Reply #1

ironoxide


My Kammerlader finally arrived and as promised I'm posting some photos.

Unfortunately it seems that at some point in its life it fell a victim to someone's "sporterising" attempts. It is a great shame, but at least now it is in hands of someone who will not allow it to deteriorate any further.

As I mentioned previously I'm planning to restore the forestock, the barrel bands and springs. Also I'll be making a new nipple and restoring the hammer face as there is some damage on it. It'll be a slow process. I'm planning to do it carefully, but after receiving the rifle I started having some doubts whether more work should be done to it. It is a historic artefact after all and any modifications diminish its genuiness. The key question here is: will this repair restore the rifle to past condition or after it is done will I see it as further departure from the original. I guess it all will depend on the quality. I bought the rifle for my collection and I have no plans to sell it, but I would be interested in knowing what others think about it.





Also, I would very grateful for any photos of original barrel bands removed from the rifle. Even those from the Norwegian Kammerladers. Perhaps the bands on both versions are the same? Having frontal photos would allow me to compare them.

09. July 2020 kl. 8:09:00
Reply #2

Andreas V


It will never be the same as it once was.
Here is some pictures on the barrel bands.





17. May 2021 kl. 22:32:55
Reply #3

ironoxide


Great :-) Thank you very much for these.

18. May 2021 kl. 3:23:05
Reply #4

Cap'n Redneck


You raise the classic dilemma:  "The key question here is: will this repair restore the rifle to past condition or after it is done will I see it as further departure from the original."

In its current condition the gun is an "antique sporting rifle" or "antique hunting rifle" of 19th. century vintage.
Lengthening the stock and making new bands and springs will restore it to its original looks, but not to the value of an original untouched military rifle.  If You added it to Your collection to illustrate the technical development between muzzleloaders and breechloaders, then it will do nicely "as is".
If You however collect military rifles, then this sporterized half-stock model will look a little out-of-place.

In the end You bought it, so You own it, and You are entitled to do whatever You want with it / to it.

Afterall, these Swedish Navy Kammerladers are not super-rare objects of immense cultural value to the Swedish public.
The new book by Mr. Flatnes on Norwegian (and Swedish) kammerlader guns state that the Model 1851 (including the improved Model 1863) was made in a grand total of about 1.700 ea.

To paraphrase Shakespeare: "To store, or to restore, that is the question...!"
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

18. May 2021 kl. 11:18:10
Reply #5

Browning08


Congratulations with a nice sporterized hunting rifle! Yes... This was a official military model, but many many of these was sold to hunters that made them into well-functioning hunting rifles. I collect only civilian hunting rifles and I do have a number of "civilized" military rifles in my collection. To me they are a culture item and a proof that guns is probably more of a value to a hunter that to a soldier.  I would, from where I stand, say that you should keep it as a relic from the past and like they say, the 1851 is not that rare in original version and they do show up quite often actually..

18. May 2021 kl. 14:35:33
Reply #6

ironoxide


Thanks. I collect mostly civilian/sporting black powder guns. I also have a special interest in transition weapons like the Kammerlader, the Sharps, the Ferguson etc. So in general I'm quite happy with it as is. However, now that I have good photos of missing barell bands I have an option of making them in future.

18. May 2021 kl. 15:56:48
Reply #7

Roy-Terje Kjoberg


The Swedish 1851 Kammarladdare is a rare gun. A production estimate of any gun counting 1500 samples will qualify for the category “rare”. They were produced in three different batches. Each batch starting with no 1. Mine is no 70 - produced in 1858 - so there will be two more no 70 but the productions years will be different. Production year stamped on the barrel underside in front of the breech.

29. May 2021 kl. 9:17:26
Reply #8

ironoxide


Mine is number 148. Unfortunately I can't check the year under the barrel, because metal between the barrel and where it hooks got "frozen" over the years. I'm currently wondering what is the best way to unfreeze it. I'll probably try few drops of penetrating oil and gentle taps once oil has had some time to work. If that doesn't work I'll have to consider unscrewing the top strap screw and pulling barrel and the part it hooks into together. Then I can try a bit of heat etc. Did you have this "problem" as well or did your barrel lift off easily?

29. May 2021 kl. 9:55:45
Reply #9

Cap'n Redneck


I would suggest unscrewing the tang screw and pulling the barrel with hooked breech and tang from the stock as one unit.  Next cut the top off a plastic soda bottle and fill it with diesel fuel.  Let the hooked breech and tang soak in diesel for a week or two.  Then some light tapping should loosen things up.
It's not beneficial to the wooden stock to get exposed to too much penetrating oil...
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

31. May 2021 kl. 11:37:57
Reply #10

ironoxide



07. June 2021 kl. 2:07:58
Reply #11

ironoxide


OK, the barrel, the tang and breech are sitting in diesel (back 6cm submerged).

When I was pulling the barrel I found some interesting markings underside. Counting from the front.
Capital letters LR, horizontal line along the barrel 11mm long.
Liege proof mark (letters elg and a star in an oval).
Capital letter M
Small font capital letter U with crown on top
3 Digits (upside down compared to above) 287 (rifle serial is 148 on the side of "receiver" so I have  no idea what this stands for)
Then barrel ends and receiver starts. Small screw is present right on connection point. Further markings on receiver under size same orientation as first marks.
Small font Capital letters GM with crown on top.
3 digits 121.
About 13mm gap, then small font capital U With a crown on top.
The on the left underside side of receiver 2 digits 30.

For the sake of completeness on top of the barrel there are 3 capital letters GVI(not sure about last one)
Then on receiver right before the sight capital U with crown.
Then way further down on receiver top "PJ Malherbe & Co A Liege.
Then on the left of receiver what I took for the serial 148
Further markings include a digit on each of 4 screws on the back of receiver and another digit next to where the screw goes.

Sorry for no pictures, but for some reason my mobile phone can't focus on metal properly. I'll provide pictures in future. It would be great if someone could explain some of the cryptic markings. Specifically those numbers 287,30 and 121.

Also there is something that looks like it was scratched by hand above original markings that looks like a V (with an extra vertical line bisecting it) and roman numeral 2. What that may mean is anyone's guess...

07. June 2021 kl. 10:02:47
Reply #12

Cap'n Redneck


Here's a link to a site that covers Belgian shotgun-markings, but some of them apply to rifles too:

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

I can offer a couple of "guesstimates" on the digit & capital letter markings: one would be that the numbers "287,30 and 121" signify individual workmen at the Malherbe factory.  That they were assigned individual numbers that they stamped on parts they made, before submitting them to one of the factory quality inspectors, who stamped the approved parts with his "crowned U" or "crowned GM".
The letters "LR" and "M" could be sub-inspector or other workmen markings?

The other common practice was to make and number parts in batches:  Say for instance Malherbe made and numbered 500 barrels, 500 receivers and 500 tangs.  Then at assembly barrel #287 got mated to receiver #30 and tang #121, and finally the complete approved gun was serialnumbered 148.

What we know for a fact from Øyvind Flatnes' book is:
Malherbe made 500 "M1851 Kammarladdningsgevär för Flottan" in 1856-57.
These guns were not marked with a year of manufacture.
They were inspected, approved and marked "GvA" (on top of barrel, in front of  the receiver) in Belgium by the Swedish artillery-captain Gustaf Magnus von Arbin.
Sålenge det er bly i lufta, er det fortsatt håp......

07. June 2021 kl. 10:39:14
Reply #13

ironoxide


Great. Thanks. I didn't see that website before.

BTW, is there anyone who makes s mold for the minie bullet in 15.75mm (. 620inch) anywhere? I have capability to make my own, but it would be quite a project so I would rather buy.

I managed to take good photos (out of stock). Here they are for your viewing pleasure :-)






07. June 2021 kl. 11:15:01
Reply #14

Torgeir


I have a Belgian made gun like yours, though in original condition (more or less).
I suggest you get this mould: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=59-470S
I got it after getting good advice from a couple more experienced guys here.
You can custom order the diameter, and mine casts bullets around .587. That is less than the rifling diameter, which as far as i remember is a little bit above .600 (.610?).I have tried minie-bullets around .600 but with horrible results, even at 50 meters.
Loaded with 72 grains of 2F, some polenta grain as a buffer, and with a suitable grease on top, this accurate molds-bullet will often shoot within 10 cm at 100 meters.
And yeah: Your rear sight appears to be mounted backwards.

Regards: Torgeir
Torgeir

07. June 2021 kl. 15:16:48
Reply #15

ironoxide


I have a Belgian made gun like yours, though in original condition (more or less).
I suggest you get this mould: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=59-470S
I got it after getting good advice from a couple more experienced guys here.
You can custom order the diameter, and mine casts bullets around .587. That is less than the rifling diameter, which as far as i remember is a little bit above .600 (.610?).I have tried minie-bullets around .600 but with horrible results, even at 50 meters.
Loaded with 72 grains of 2F, some polenta grain as a buffer, and with a suitable grease on top, this accurate molds-bullet will often shoot within 10 cm at 100 meters.
And yeah: Your rear sight appears to be mounted backwards.

Regards: Torgeir

Thanks for the tips. You're right. The sight is mounted backwards :-) I'll swap it before putting it back in the stock.

Regarding bullets. I assume you use a round patch (paper or cloth)0.4mm thick (16 thou) through which you seat the bullet as the chamber diameter is 15.75 (0.62inch). Interesting. My first instinct would be to try finding a bullet that fills the chamber. I imagine you did the same with your. 600 inch testing. Did you use a different patch back then or did you run it unpatched? I should have some. 58 cal round balls. I'll give them a try once I put the gun back together.

Also, on a chance my gun will not like them, is there a chance you can sell me some bullets from your mold to test?

07. June 2021 kl. 18:06:27
Reply #16

Torgeir


Patches are not used in kammerladers, neither of Norwegian nor of Swedish extraction. The transition from chamber to bore wreaks havoc with them.
Sometimes a "cup" made from carton is used at the base of the bullet to keep it centered as it exits the chamber and enters the bore. Many Norwegian kammerladers need this to shoot well. Also in this Swede I was told to use a "cup" like this, but it turned out a naked bullet was the best solution.  I do realize that this defies logic, with the bullet rattling out of the chamber into the bore.
These guns are individualists, and dimensions can vary. By the way, the commission that came up with the Norwegian kammerlader did tests with chambers that corresponded in diameter with the rifling. But this worked less well than with an oversized chamber. Also keep in mind that paper cartridges were the order of the day, so that bullets were surrounded with paper in the chamber.
I can send you some bullets. There is a PM function here, so send me a message.

Regards: Torgeir
Torgeir

07. June 2021 kl. 22:36:10
Reply #17

ironoxide



07. June 2021 kl. 23:51:47
Reply #18

ironoxide


BTW. Shouldn't there be another notch cut in the sight? The sight pivots so a low or a high part can be selected. The low part has a notch cut in it. The high part however has no notch.
Also there is a square metal plate being held to the sight by two screws. I can't imagine what purpose it serves.

Can anyone shed any light on the above?

08. June 2021 kl. 0:01:37
Reply #19

Torgeir


Many of these are without any notch at all in the rear sight, as they were never issued to troops. Noone have bothered to file a notch in your taller sight. Mine shot quite high, so I had to make a replacement front sight. Didn’t want to file the rear sight down.
The square plate you’re mentioning is a spring. You’ll see how it works if you can persuade the two small screws to come loose...
Torgeir