Your favorite BPCR

[Krag]

I've just been browsing this category http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/index.php?kategori=2

What's your favorite BP cartridge rifle? Do you prefer replicas or originals? Single shots or repeaters? Do you shoot for fun or in competitions?

Thought it would be nice to hear about experiences from the rest of the world. :-)

[tommy303]

My personal favorite is 45-70 Sharps with heavy octagon barrel.  It started out life as a M-1863 Carbine, but was converted at some point in its life to metallic cartridge.  I generally shoot for fun now rather than competition.  I use a number of different bullets--405 gr and 500 gr based on the Frankford Arsenal military bullets of the 1870s and 80s, and a 540 grain paper patch bullet.

thomas

[tommy303]

To further answer your question, when I first got into black powder shooting--around 1961, there were very nearly no replica weapons on the market, so if one wanted to do some shooting, then one had to go with originals.  At that time they were not so expensive as today--I bought my first, a 45-70 Springfield carbine for about $50.  A nice Sharps might run you $200, and I recall a Henry repeater for about $100 (probably because 44-rimfire was hard to find.  Now, 47 years down the road, it is still fun to shoot originals provided the weapon is in good shape and one exercises a reasonable amount of care in shooting and cleaning it; and it is nice to see what they can do in comparison with modern replicas.  On the other hand, the cost of originals has gotten so high, and the selection of good condition ones so slim, that I would probably choose to purchase a well made replica.

On the whole, I prefer single shot rifles, although I have not owned enough black powder repeaters to  really make a judgment.  I suppose it is just what I am used to.  I had an old Whitneyville-Burgess lever action with a Burton barrel in 45-70, but being a tubular magazine one was relatively restricted to flat nosed bullets up to about 425 gr.  My then favorite 500gr Govt bullet would of course not chamber because the cartridge then became too long for the action, and it was round nose in any case.  There is usually no such problem in single shots, with a few exceptions.

[Fabian23]

Oh what a dilema!  

I only shoot for fun for now so my favourite would have to be my 2-band Snider rifle with 5 groove fast-twist rifling.  As far as repeaters go it is a toss up between my Vetterli 1869/71 and Kropatschek short rifle, both are accurate although nothing beats the smoothness of the Kropa. action, slick as a slick thing.

To be honest since I don't shoot competition with my BPCRs they are all my favourites for different reasons and being able to hit a barn door is not top of the list :-D

I do competitions with my muzzleloaders

[tommy303]

I almost bought a Kropatshek years ago in fine condition as they were relatively inexpensive back in the late 60s.  I thought it would go well with the M1874 Gras and M-1866 50-70 Allin conversion that I had at that time.  I wish now that I had bought it and held on to the others as well.

[Krag]

Tommy303: Your arsenal is very interesting. If those prices were valid today... I don't think many people shoot original Henry repeaters these days.

Fabian23: I have never shot a Vetterli 1869/71 or a Kropatschek rifle. In what countries were they used originally?

[Fabian23]

Krag,

The Vetterli was made and issued in Switzerland.  Originaly in .41 Swiss rimfire they can very easily be converted to centerfire.  They are pretty heavy but beautifully made, have excellent triggers and accurate.  One of, or maybe even the first repeating rifle to be issue to a European army.

The 1886 Kroptaschek was made by OEWG Steyr for Portugal, it is very similar to the Mauser 71/84 but in my opinion is superior in quality and operation.  The caliber is 8x60R BP although it was later used with smokeless 8x56R.  For some reason they remain cheap, probably beacause they are seen as the Mauser's poor relative.  The French navy also adopted the Kropatschek but in 11mm.

My list of European military BP rifles is quite extensive.

[tommy303]

Fabian,

Do you shoot paper patched bullets very much in your rifles--if so how do they compare with regular greased bullets?

[Øyvind F.]

What I prefer to shoot varies from time to time. I have shot the original 12 mm Rolling block a lot and also a Jarmann bolt action repeating rifle which is made from original parts.

My new investment is a Shiloh Sharps, of course a replica and a beautiful rifle! I just got a paper patch mould for it, so when the Christmas holiday is coming up I'm going to try how that works out.

I mostly shoot for fun, but also participate in competitions. :-)

[tommy303]

The Shiloh Sharps replicas I have seen are very fine rifles as far as I can judge.  My .45-75 seems to handle well both the 405 and 500 grain US military bullets of the 1870s and 1880s, with the 500gr giving the best accuracy of the two.  A few months back I purchased an RCBS mould for paper patch.  It casts a quite long bullet weighing 540 grains.  I run the bullets through a .451 sizer just to even them out before paper patching them.  So far the shooting results are promising both with a 90% lead alloy and an alloy made of scrap wheel weights.  Lubrication is provided by a grease cookie between two card wads.  I have just made up a new batch of lubricant and I need to get out and give it a try.

As far as the grooved bullets go, I have been using beeswax and synthetic whale oil for years, but I am seriously thinking of trying bayberry wax and graphite or straight Japan wax; the Frankford Arsenal used the former in the 1870s, but switched to Japan wax in the 1880s.  It might be interesting to see how those two do.

tom

[Fabian23]

The only paper patch bullets I use are for my Martini Henry cavalry carbine, it seems to work well, but I have not shot it with unpatched bullets so I can't say if it is any better or worse.

[Øyvind F.]

My mould is manufactured by Buffalo Arms and is 535 grains and .446" in diameter. My plan is to patch it up to .451" or .452". This bullet, patched to .451", shot from a .45-110 Shiloh Long Range Express rifle produced a 1.336" five shot group at 200-yds at Raton this year. It will be interesting to try it.

Here is my first patched bullet from this mould:



It is always interesting to reproduce the lubricants of the 19th century. However, in later years I have used SPG almost exclusively.

[tommy303]

That is a nice looking bullet.  I was somewhat tempted to go with a smaller diameter myself and patch up, but my .45 cal. rifles have so much variance in bore and groove diameters that I decided ultimately to go with .451.  It seems to work well in both my Sharps and a Navy Arms rolling block.  I have yet to try it in a 45-70 trapdoor and my Martini-Henry.  The trapdoor has a .459 bore diameter and the Martini about .460.  

My current home made lube for grease cookies is 1/3-lbs of beeswax, 1-lbs of paraffin, 13-oz of Vaseline, and a table spoon of olive oil.  I make sheets by cutting off enough from the block of lube to melt in a shallow pie baking pan using a double boiler method--frying pan filled with water brought to just below boiling.  Float the pin pan in the water and throw in enough lube so that it covers the bottom of the pan to the desired depth when it is melted.  After that let the water cool down and when the lube has cooled enough put the pie tin in the freezer for about ten minutes.  At the end of that, the lube sheet will fall right out of the pan, ready for use.  It's pretty low tech, and I have been tempted to get a lube strip extruder from Buffalo arms, but this works remarkably well and one can vary the thickness quite easily by adding more or less lubricant to the pan.

tom

[J-K]

It's too hard for me to pick out my favorite. Although I prefer original guns this is the one I shoot the most. Swedish rolling block action 8X58RD, of course I only use black powder in it and breech seat the bullets.
John

[Fabian23]

It's ugly as sin :-D .... but if it shoots straight, who cares!

I thought 8x58R was a nitro calibre :-|

[tommy303]

Ugly perhaps, but that has a charm of its own, particularly if it groups well.

[J-K]

Ugly? You guys are mean, I am going to go play by myself!;-)  Besides, it's mother loves it. :-D :-D :-D :-D

"I thought 8x58R was a nitro calibre"

Oh no...The 8X58RD was originally a black powder cartridge. Although later it was loaded with smokeless. Much like the cartridges for the M1888 Mannlicher, the M1886 Kropatchek, and the Lee-Metford. All started out as black powder and then changed to smokeless.

Although there is some debate weather the Swedish model 67/89 was actually built for the smokeless round, or if it was just an improvement when the Swedes (like the Norwegian Remingtonkarabin M/1888) went to the smaller 8mm cartridge. Anyone with input on that please let me know.

Best Wishes, John

[Fabian23]

I learn something every day.  I have a Lee-Metford and I knew about the Mannlicher 1888 (I have a Mannlicher 1886 in 11x58R).

[Mauser]

Hi Fabian.
You have nice Rifle
If you think to sell it do not hesitate to contact me.
I do have M 1885 but it has sortened in Belgie cal 11 x 57R

What caliber id nitro what is not it is difficult to say.
9.5 mm Turkish Mauser was fully Bp and the optimum caliber if we belive what paul mauser sayed.

In Bp competitions 9,5 mm or bigger is only real Bp caliber.
In finland min. is 10 mm Swedes want also shoot 8 mm

What is best or favorite caliber it is difficult to say.
One is Jarman 10,15  x 60 R.
Broblem is to get wright loading what do not greate led in barrel.
Bras with soulders is difficult.

Next season I am making tests .40-65 rifle what i bild in remington action.
This brass is with out soulder

regards all readers.
Paavo

[2nd USSS]

Hi Mauser,
2nd USSS here in Idaho, USA. Have you or are you working on the 40-65 WCF rifle you mentioned a year or so ago?  That is my favorite caliber and rifle (Win model 85).  It was my great grandfathers that he bought in 1887 -new.  I have used it for most of my big-game hunting here in the Western States as well as Canada the past 32 years.  Also in many contests.  I can share some loading info, etc, if you wish.  Is yours a new barrel with fast rifling twist ?

thanks, 2nd USSS