First of all; thank you for your welcome to the board Oyvind.
Coincidentally, I am in occasional contact with one of your countrymen on another Forum, his screen name is Storegnu and he is a contributor to the 6.5 Grendel Forum, he is an IPSC competitor, you might find http://www.65grendel.com/forum/ to be of interest.
Now to my inquiry: I have some rifles and muskets that I'd like to shoot using assembled paper cartridges, as would have been used by the infantrymen who originally fought with these weapons. I was accustomed to just pouring a charge of BP into the barrel, and putting a patched ball or bullet directly onto the charge, which works very well once the correct combination of components is arrived at for each weapon.
Still, I think it might be interesting to experiment with paper cartridges, both for comparative accuracy testing, and rate of fire too. I understand that an experienced British musketeer could load and fire 5 rounds per minute through his Brown Bess. I'd like to see ow many I might be able to shoot through mine with some practice.
In addition to the Bess, I will be shooting paper cartridges through a 1777 French Charleville musket, and an 1861 Springfield rifle. Will be using round balls in the muskets, and Minie balls in the Springfield. Would any board members know of a good tutorial to learn how to make paper cartridges for these guns ? I am looking for historically correct version if that is still possible.
Thanks, Tom
This is a quite extensive subject. The making of all these types of paper cartridges are described in my blackpowder book, but this book is only available in Norwegian.
(http://www.svartkrutt.net/muskpat2.jpg)
.75 cal. British style cartridge.
French and British paper cartridges for the smoothbore musket differ slightly. The British tied the ball to the cartridge with a woollen thread while the French simply folded the paper over the ball.
To make the French style of cartridge, see this article (http://www.serve.com/rbriggs/couriers/9-96/cartridge.html). If you want to make the British style, simply tie a thread in front of and behind the ball.
Minié cartridges consist of an outer wrapping, a paper casing for the powder and a paper casing for the ball. Here you must decide whether to make the British style or the American style. The British style is used for miniés that is loaded with a paper patch, while the American version contained a lubricated grease groove bullet.
(http://www.svartkrutt.net/pritchett8stor.jpg)
British style Pritchett cartridge for .577 and .58 cal. muskets.
This site describes the fabrication of an American style cartridge (http://members.aol.com/wis33rd/33articles/authcart.html).
Finally, this site (http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge.htm) describes both roundball and minié cartridges.
Thanks for the links, Oyvind. If your book has good diagrams and photos showing the steps to make cartridges, I'm sure I could puzzle out the Norwegian text. Is your book available in the US ? If not, can I order one from you and pay with a Visa ? I sent something to an acquaintance in Norway a few months ago and it was simple to do, it's a small world now after all :-) . Tom
No, the book is not available in the US. I don't take VISA, but perhaps you can order it through a Norwegian book store like Bokkilden (http://www.bokkilden.no/SamboWeb/produkt.do?produktId=146545), or directly from the publisher (http://www.boktunet.no/?did=15773795).
I was working on an English translation, and I'm about half way through the book. I stopped about a year ago, and I don't know if I will ever finish it.
Hi Tom,
The following links show the relevant pages from the 1856 edition of the US Ordnance department's Experiments for Small Arms for Military Service.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h130/thomas_fuller/Burtonballcartridge1.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h130/thomas_fuller/Burtonballcartridge2.jpg
hope that is of some help.
Thomas
> Hi Tom,
>
> The following links show the relevant pages from the 1856 edition of the
> US
Ordnance department's Experiments for Small Arms for Military Service.
>
>
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h130/thomas_fuller/Burtonballcartridge1.jpg
>
>
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h130/thomas_fuller/Burtonballcartridge2.jpg
>
> hope that is of some help.
>
> Thomas
Thomas; Many
thanks. Tom
Hi Tom,
My pleasure. A slightly less complex version was widely used in the Civil War by government contractors, probably as a time/cost saving measure. This eliminated the innermost cylinder of rocket paper. I have made and used both kinds and the inclusion of the stiff rocket paper gives a bit more rigidity to the cartridge and helps break thouter and inner wrappers when the empty powder end is struck against the muzzle. The outer wrapper breaks clean, allowing the greased bullet to be squeezed directly from the remains of the outer wrapper directly into the rifle muzzle (bearing in mind the entire bullet was slightly lubricated by dipping into melted lubricant).
Thomas
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/image3.jpg)
a Packet of ten rounds plus three loose rounds of my making.
Thomas
> a Packet of ten rounds plus three loose rounds of my making.
What sort of paper do you use for your cartridges ? Did you make these following the instructions as provided in the pages you sent yesterday ? How well do they
shoot ? Finally, what do you use them in ? I am going to be shooting some in my 1861 Springfield Artilleryman's rifle. I have an 1803 Harper's Ferry that I want to try paper cartridges in too; have you a lot of experience with paper cartridges ? Tom
Hi Tom,
Yes I have made and used paper cartridges for years for my P1853 Enfield and Long Land Pattern Musket. The cartridge pictured were made according to the 1856 treatise I posted. The paper is newsprint for the inner and outer wrappers and I use heavy card stock for the inner powder cylinder. The bullet is the Lyman old-style minie as designed by Burton in the 1850s. I have also made and used the British Pritchett bullet and cartridge as well. Both seem to shoot quite well in my Enfield with service charges. The American cartridge had 60 grains of powderbehind a 480gr bullet, while the British had 2.5 drams, which is about 68 grains, propelling its 530gr Pritchett ball. One can experiment though, but I would not exceed those charges by much as it can result in the hollow base belling out like a drag chute. This tends to ruin the exterior ballistical performance, and at any rate the slow twist of your Springfield will probably not stabilize a bullet over a certain velocity. I suspect that the given service charges were a bit larger than needed to allow for spillage of powder during loading under difficult combat conditions, and a charge of 50 to 55 grains might give better accuracy.
I believe the 1803 rifle was issued with both a small waistbelt cartridge box, as well as powder horn and bullet bag for normal rifle type loading. The cartridges were intended to be used only to speed up rate of fire in emergencies. If you intend to try the 1803 andflintlock muskets in military fashion, make yourself a frizzen stall. This is a heavy leather sleeve which fits over the frizzen and is attached to the trigger guard or sling swivel by a leather lace or cord. This is necessary since in military drill the pan was primed from the cartridge before the musket was loaded--the term don't go off half-cockedhad real meaning back then. It does slow up rate of fire just a little, but that is better than having an accidental discharge during loading. The stall also makes a dandy safety when carrying a loaded flintlock.
thomas
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/image4.jpg)
Packet of 10 Pritchett Cartridges with single example of bullet and cartridge. The coloured band is a gummed paper strip which holds the outer tube holding the bullet to the inner powder tube. The bullet end is greased and is slit in three places to help the paper shed as the bullet leaves the muzzle.
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/image5.jpg)
Hi Tom,
This would be an interesting round for your muskets: this is the 75 calibre buck and ball with one tier of five buckshot on top of a musket ball. In an exchange of vollies between formed infantry at 100m or less this could be devastating. The addition of the buckshot would increase the number of projectiles going down range from 500 for an average battalion of foot to 3000.
> > a Packet of ten rounds plus three loose rounds of my making.
>
> What sort of paper do you use for your cartridges ? Did you make these
> following the instructions as provided in the pages you sent yesterday ?
> How well do they shoot ? Finally, what do you use them in ? I am going
> to be shooting some in my 1861 Springfield Artilleryman's rifle. I have
> an 1803 Harper's Ferry that I want to try paper cartridges in too; have
> you a lot of experience with paper cartridges ? Tom
I was thinking about your 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle. The list of accoutrements issued with it included a small linen cartridge box (which in the event did not
stand up well to campaigns and was replaced with a leather and wood box worn on the waistbelt), a bullet bag, and powder horn. This indicates that the rifle
was primarily loaded with powder from the horn and a patched round ball in the usual manner. The inclusion of a small belly cartridge box was for scaled
down musket cartridges for use in emergencies to increase the rate of fire. Presumably these had smaller diameter balls than the ones used with patches to
allow for ease and rapidity of loading, although it is possible that the cartridge might have had a prepatched ball in the manner of Britain's Baker Rifle. In these the cartridge was the usual paper construction but with a pre greased patch tied around the ball (at least during the campaigns against the
French).
I do not know if the US followed that practice, but there were instances in the Revolutionary War of riflemen being issued with or given the materials to make cartridges. The main problem of the day was the riflemen's slow rate of fire compared to musket armed line infantry or fusil armed light infantry. Cartridges helped speed up the loading of the rifle, though the undersized and unpatched ball would lead to a loss of accuracy. An alternative would be to have a paper cartridge with just the premeasured charge, and a number of greased and patched balls in a wooden loading block. This would speed things up slightly by eliminating the need to fumble around for powder horn and measure, and had been well established by the time of the
Revolutionary War.
Thomas;
You must be a re-enactor, you are a wealth of information. How long have you been shooting and studying these guns ? I am a real novice, there is always some other thing that drags me away from my gun hobbies, (we have 7 children, 4 yrs to 14 yrs), plus we are both self-employed...it will be nice when the last kid is in school, we might have more free time then. I am eager to assemble some cartridges using the techniques I have now, hope to get a copy of Oyvind's book soon too. Magnus, an acquaintence in Norway, is going to help when he gets back from Germany, I guess. Do you live in the US ? Tom
Hi Tom,
I purchased my first black powder rifle, a .40 calibre DGW Flintlock long rifle in 1960. Since that time, the rifles and muskets I have or have had include:
.50 calibre flintlock Southern Mountain Rifle,
45-70 Springfield rifle model 1873
45-55 Springfield carbine model 1873
50-70 Alin conversion Model 1866
11x59R Gras Model 1874
75 calibre Long Land Pattern Musket
.577 Enfield P-1853
.577 MkIII* Snider-Enfield Carbine
-577-450 Martini-Henry
.54 calibre Sharps Carbine M-1863
.45 calibre Sharps conversion of the
M-1863 45-70 Navy Arms Rolling Block Remington,
45-70 Burgess Lever action rifle with a Morse barrel
a variety of percussion and cartridge BP pistols
I have indeed done re-enacting when I was still able to keep up with the youngsters.
Revolutionary War (64th Regiment of Foot)
Mexican War (Horse Artillery)
Civil War (3rd US Infantry and 2nd US Artillery)
Indian Wars period 1856-1880 (3rd Infantry, 1st US Cavalry, 2nd US Artillery)
I live in Arizona with my wife and daughter and I hold Bachelor's and Master's degrees in history.
I thoroughly enjoy black powder shooting, although my colleciton has been reduced to a handful of favorite shooters (I do wish now that I had not sold or traded a lot of the ones I used to have--but that is life I suppose). It has always been a pleasant learning exprience, using the tools of the past in the context of the times.
When I first started out there was not a very wide pool of experienced shooters or suppliers to draw upon. In fact a lot of learning the ins and outs of the sport was by trial and error. I will be extremely interested in following your progress, and please feel free to ask questions at any time.
yours
Thomas
The following link has some examples of original cartridge packet wrappers: http://www.cw1861.com/1Originals.htm
This link shows a variety of CW cartridges. note the colour or colours of the paper used: http://www.cw1861.com/1Single%20Cartridges.htm
Also note the red and white thread used on the .69 cal ball cartridge
This thread has got me into thinking about trying some cartridges from my orignial India pattern Bessy :-P
If you like a paper cartridge challenge, get yourself a Chassepot needle rifle. It is very labour intensive but worth it. They shoot wonderfully.
> It you like a paper cartridge challenge, get yourself a Chassepot needle
> rifle. It is very labour intensive but worth it. They shoot wonderfully.
Picture, pictures, pictures! :-D I don't know of people here in Norway that shoots the Chassepot. I have wondered about getting myself a Chassepot or a Dreyse needle gun, but haven't got around to it yet.
> Picture, pictures, pictures! :-D I don't know of people here in Norway
> that shoots the Chassepot. I have wondered about getting myself a
> Chassepot or a Dreyse needle gun, but haven't got around to it yet.
I use a method I found on t'interweb, with a few adaptations of my own:
I use nitrated paper ordered from Dixie, cut it up according to my chamber dimensions.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart1.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart2.jpg)
Some recommend filling the cap with powder before glueing it to the disc, I don't with the theory that it will slow the needle down as it passes through.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart3.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart4.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart5.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart6.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/Cart7.jpg)
The strip of paper around the bullet is also nitrated paper, it is not intended to produce a patched bullet, it is just to provide a tight fit into the paper tube. Currently I use 55gr Swiss#2 with a traditional 45-70 RN bullet.
Managed to score 82 last time I did a series (50m) with it. It does not like being held 'target style' unlike my Vetterli for instance, I always get my best results with standard rifle grip.
It isn't a faithful reproduction of the real one, I'll try that someday. I'm just happy with my current concoction, which the rifle seems to like.
I would love to have one.
It looks just like the sort of challenge I love. Nice job on the cartridge design and making. It is too bad that needle guns show up so rarely in the US.
Hi Fabian,
Did not the Chassepot use a rubber bushing around a cone on the bolt face to seal the breech? I understand that the issue cartridges sometimes contributed to fouling around the bushing which led to some gas leakage; have you experienced anything like that with your cartridges?
> Hi Fabian,Did not the Chassepot use a rubber bushing around a cone on the
> bolt face to seal the breech? I understand that the issue cartridges
> sometimes contributed to fouling around the bushing which led to some gas
> leakage; have you experienced anything like that with your cartridges?
The rubber bushing is behind the conical bolt face, not around it, the pressure from ignition pushes the cone back, causing the rubber bushing to expand and seal the chamber. I have never had any gas blow back from mine, luckily common 18mm plumbing washers are perfect for replacing the brittle originals.
Another possible source of gas leakage is along the needle channel in the bolt, but again, a proper fitting needle will eliminate this. The real problem is ash build-up in the chamber from the cartridge. After each shot the chamber is effectively shortened until the cartridges no longer fit. I usually manage 5-6 shots before I give the chamber a quick brush. My cartridges completely combust, but there is a school of thought that says that the paper should in fact be
heat resistant, such that it simply gets blown out of the barrel and leaves little residue.
I only do the standard competition series of 13 rounds so I can not speak for what happened in the field after 40-50 rounds.
Thanks Fabian,
I had wondered how the bushing sealed the breech. I have never held a Chassepot before and only seen them in pictures. It is certainly a completely fascinating weapon.
Hello Oyvind,
my congratulation to your side !!
I never found so many hints and links in any other forums before!!
All Members provide so many Information in written words an pictures
I read this thread and like to start in building up my first Papercartriges this weekend.
In serval movies like Gettysburg and some other it`s not close enought to see correct loading procedure and so i have one question for thepractrical use of the Papercartrige
So far i interpret the building instuctions :
The American Style Cartrige is load with a Burton Minie wich contains lube in their grease grooves, and the English Style Cartrige are load with the Pritched Bullet wrapped in Paper and lubed outside !
If i will loading this into my Rifle i have to bite of the paper fill in the Powder into the muzzel.. but then i don`t know the exatly way further..
i imagin that the Prittchet are loaded completely in with the paper but what it`s the right way at the American Style ??
your information will be appreciated
regards
Klaus :confused:
> i imagin that the
Prittchet are loaded completely in with the paper but
> what it`s the right way at the American Style ??
For the Enfield cartridge, see this article from researchpress.co.uk: Enfield Paper Cartridges (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/cartridge.htm). The article describes in detail how to make a British style Pritchett cartridge.
For loading the Enfield cartridge, follow the original instructions (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/cartridge09.htm).
The American Burton cartridge consists of a powder container and an outer wrapper that contains the bullet. When loading the cartridge is simply opened in the rear, powder is poured down the barrel, the ball is taken out of the paper casing and rammed down the bore.
This link tells you how to make the American style cartridge: Making Authentic Cartridges (http://members.aol.com/wis33rd/33articles/authcart.html)
Some other links:
Making blank cartridges (http://www.17thmicoe.org/Cartridges.htm)
More paper cartridge making (http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge.htm)
Hello Oyvind,
thx again for you kind help. i'll sure to know to be in the right Forum!!:-D
Klaus
I acquired what I believe to be eight British 18thc. paper cartridges. I mean REAL from the period!
The cartridges are stout and the .69 cal. balls are tied into the cartridge with a white woolen type thread and the paper around the balla are dipped in what looks like wax or tallow. I openned one of the cartridges to look at it's ball and there is a place where the ball was crimped off of it's rod when made. The powder is a large grainy dark gray or black powder. The tops of these cartridges were vertically folded and sealed with this waxy substance. The words on the catridge paper are old English script. The paper is definately rag paper.
Of course, as we know...Some American cipied the British way of making cartridges and the French as well. These cartridges came out of Maine. ANYONE feel free to e-mail me or respond. The more knowledge...the better.
Ritchie
An interesting thread and now I am in the situation of being the proud owner of a Chassepot.
I hope you don't mind me borrowing your thread manykids.
Fabian23; can you confirm that you use .45 bullets that are not sized?
I have found some links on the net and most suggest .43 bullets.
I have made a chamber cast and the cone for the bullet to reach full rifling is quite "gentle" so therefore I might use a .45 bullet resulting in notehing else than a shorter cartridge with a slightly reduced powder charge?
Bullets made of pure lead, of course. The idea is to use what is available and not having to buy yet another mould. And .43 moulds does not come in a low budget rated mould like Lee.
I also reckon .440 roundballs would do for plinking but for 100m I would prefer longer projectiles.
I concider nitrating the paper myself for the first tests.
This very useful site (http://jp.sedent.free.fr/UNE%20CARTOUCHE%20IGNIFUGEE%20POUR%20LE%20FUSIL%20CHASSEPOT.htm) was mentioned by mauser in : https://forum/svartkrutt.net/index.php?topic=57]this thread.
Any information appreciated!
JJ
Hi!
Yes, I just use unsized .457" bullets, nothing fancy there. One thing I am going to change is to use a Berdan primer instead of a percussion cap. Several french shooters I know use them and report excellent ignition. The main thing is to get the OAL just right (it will change depending on the bullet used) and to make the whole cartridge as rigid as possible.
Ah, very useful information indeed!
The berdan primers must be concidered, one assumes they are placed "backwards" at the very rear of the cartridge?
A friend of mine made me a new firing needle from piano wire yesterday so now I will not need to use the original one.
For testing I concider using a loose bullet followed by the primed charge. If the paper cartridge is made for the bullet taking up most space in the chamber wads may be used to fill the gap when the chamber length behind a different bullet style increases. In short; use compensation filler between bullet and cartridge to keep OAL as accurate and even as possible. But I guess there is no given answer to this until tests are done.
To make the cartridge as sturdy as possible one is tempted to make one that fits snugly in the chamber but with fouling etc. I guess there ought to be some slack. Still, using two rounds of paper or thicker paper would help making the cartridge more rigid. As long as it is nitrated that is.
Some stupid questiens at the end: Where does primers and cardboard discs end up? Do they come out the muzzle or will they fall out from the chamber when the bolt is pulled back?
My knowledge on the subject is still only theoretical...
JJ
Yes, the Berdan primer is placed upside down with the inside facing the needle. This also has the advantage that the needle needs to penetrate less into the chamber since a primer is shorter than a percussion cap, theoretically reducing corrosion of the needle.
Actually nitrating the paper is not essential, I don't even think the original ones were. The standard paper used nowadays is good old brown parcel paper. Rigidity is achieved primcipally by firmly pressing the powder in the "case".
It is best to make the cartridge as straight as possible behind the bullet. The space around the cartridge in the chamber allows the paper to swirl and burn more thoroughly. Any paper is usually blasted out of the barrel although I have sometimes found that the base remains behind.
I have made a couple of test cartridges filled with polenta just to see how they fit and try if they ignite. So far it's looking good.
I found that a wooden ramrod from an old rifle would do nicely to form the paper; it gives a slightly conical shape and I can seat the primed discs from the rear end. I use a pair of scissors to trim lenght and make the flaps that backs up the primer. Front end will be trimmed later on.
I now have som primed cartridges ready for loading; I only have one mould for .45 other than roundballs, it's a shortened moult that casts 300 grains flat nose bullets. Now I need to make some for the preliminary testing. If this will work OK I will post a detailed description. Not necessary to show it unless I can come to some sort of conclusion.
Here is one of the test cartridges, using a too heavy 500 grain bullet. But for testing it's allright. One can see it is slightly conical but still smaller than the chamber; it has expanded upon rupture caused by the primer being set off.
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/201012161411004d0a0fe4394ee.jpg)
Using the 300 grain flat nose bullet I have a capacity of approximately 110 grains of powder. I only use Wano and will go for a charge around 70 grains Wano PP, leaving sufficient room for cardboard discs and filler/lubrication.
JJ