16. October 2021 kl. 4:21:24
forum.svartkrutt.net

Author Topic: Paper cartridge know-how ?  (Read 69283 times)

01. January 1970 kl. 1:00:00
Reply #20

tommy303


Hi Fabian,

Did not the Chassepot use a rubber bushing around a cone on the bolt face to seal the breech?  I understand that the issue cartridges sometimes contributed to fouling around the bushing which led to some gas leakage; have you experienced anything like that with your cartridges?
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman

21. August 2007 kl. 18:09:04
Reply #21

Fabian23


> Hi Fabian,Did not the Chassepot use a rubber bushing around a cone on the
> bolt face to seal the breech?  I understand that the issue cartridges
> sometimes contributed to fouling around the bushing which led to some gas
> leakage; have you experienced anything like that with your cartridges?

The rubber bushing is behind the conical bolt face, not around it, the pressure from ignition pushes the cone back, causing the rubber bushing to expand and seal the chamber.  I have never had any gas blow back from mine, luckily common 18mm plumbing washers are perfect for replacing the brittle originals.

Another possible source of gas leakage is along the needle channel in the bolt, but again, a proper fitting needle will eliminate this.  The real problem is ash  build-up in the chamber from the cartridge.  After each shot the chamber is effectively shortened until the cartridges no longer fit.  I usually manage 5-6 shots before I give the chamber a quick brush.  My cartridges completely combust, but there is a school of thought that says that the paper should in fact be
heat resistant, such that it simply gets blown out of the barrel and leaves little residue.

I only do the standard competition series of 13 rounds so I can not speak for what happened in the field after 40-50 rounds.
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

21. August 2007 kl. 19:23:12
Reply #22

tommy303


Thanks Fabian,

I had wondered how the bushing sealed the breech.  I have never held a Chassepot before and only seen them in pictures.  It is certainly a completely fascinating weapon.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman

25. September 2008 kl. 13:09:00
Reply #23

Klaus


Hello Oyvind,

my congratulation to your side !!
I never found so many hints and links in any other forums before!!
All Members provide so many Information in written words an pictures

I read this thread and like to start in building up my first Papercartriges this weekend.

In serval movies like Gettysburg and some other it`s not close enought to see correct loading procedure and so i have one question for thepractrical use of the Papercartrige

So far i interpret the building instuctions :
The American Style Cartrige is load with a Burton Minie wich contains lube in their grease grooves, and the English Style Cartrige are load with the Pritched Bullet wrapped in Paper and lubed outside !
If i will loading this into my Rifle i have to bite of the paper fill in the Powder into the muzzel.. but then i don`t know the exatly way further..

i imagin that the Prittchet  are loaded completely in with the paper  but what it`s the right way at the American Style ??
 
your information will be appreciated

regards
Klaus :confused:

01. January 1970 kl. 1:00:00
Reply #24

Øyvind F.

Administrator
> i imagin that the

Prittchet  are loaded completely in with the paper  but
> what it`s the right way at the American Style ??

For the Enfield cartridge, see this article from researchpress.co.uk: Enfield Paper Cartridges. The article describes in detail how to make a British style Pritchett cartridge.

For loading the Enfield cartridge, follow the original instructions.

The American Burton cartridge consists of a powder container and an outer wrapper that contains the bullet. When loading the cartridge is simply opened in the rear, powder is poured down the barrel, the ball is taken out of the paper casing and rammed down the bore.

This link tells you how to make the American style cartridge: Making Authentic Cartridges

Some other links:

Making blank cartridges
More paper cartridge making
Øyvind F. - forum admin
Ta også en kikk på kammerlader.no.

26. September 2008 kl. 8:55:39
Reply #25

Klaus


Hello Oyvind,

thx again for you kind help. i'll sure to know to be in the right Forum!!:-D

 
Klaus

18. July 2010 kl. 0:30:25
Reply #26

Ritchie

Guest
I acquired what I believe to be eight British 18thc. paper cartridges. I mean REAL from the period!
The cartridges are stout and the .69 cal. balls are tied into the cartridge with a white woolen type thread and the paper around the balla are dipped in what looks like wax or tallow. I openned one of the cartridges to look at it's ball and there is a place where the ball was crimped off of it's rod when made. The powder is a large grainy dark gray or black powder. The tops of these cartridges were vertically folded and sealed with this waxy substance. The words on the catridge paper are old English script. The paper is definately rag paper.
Of course, as we know...Some American cipied the British way of making cartridges and the French as well. These cartridges came out of Maine. ANYONE feel free to e-mail me or respond. The more knowledge...the better.

                                   Ritchie

12. December 2010 kl. 11:31:43
Reply #27

jæger justnæs


An interesting thread and now I am in the situation of being the proud owner of a Chassepot.
I hope you don't mind me borrowing your thread manykids.
Fabian23; can you confirm that you use .45 bullets that are not sized?
I have found some links on the net and most suggest .43 bullets.
I have made a chamber cast and the cone for the bullet to reach full rifling is quite "gentle" so therefore I might use a .45 bullet resulting in notehing else than a shorter cartridge with a slightly reduced powder charge?
Bullets made of pure lead, of course. The idea is to use what is available and not having to buy yet another mould. And .43 moulds does not come in a low budget rated mould like Lee.
I also reckon .440 roundballs would do for plinking but for 100m I would prefer longer projectiles.
I concider nitrating the paper myself for the first tests.
This very useful site was mentioned by mauser in : https://forum/svartkrutt.net/index.php?topic=57]this thread.
Any information appreciated!

JJ
Best når det smeller!

13. December 2010 kl. 10:07:00
Reply #28

Fabian23


Hi!

Yes, I just use unsized .457" bullets, nothing fancy there.  One thing I am going to change is to use a Berdan primer instead of a percussion cap.  Several french shooters I know use them and report excellent ignition.  The main thing is to get the OAL just right (it will change depending on the bullet used) and to make the whole cartridge as rigid as possible.
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

13. December 2010 kl. 10:51:40
Reply #29

jæger justnæs


Ah, very useful information indeed!
The berdan primers must be concidered, one assumes they are placed "backwards" at the very rear of the cartridge?
A friend of mine made me a new firing needle from piano wire yesterday so now I will not need to use the original one.
For testing I concider using a loose bullet followed by the primed charge. If the paper cartridge is made for the bullet taking up most space in the chamber wads may be used to fill the gap when the chamber length behind a different bullet style increases. In short; use compensation filler between bullet and cartridge to keep OAL as accurate and even as possible. But I guess there is no given answer to this until tests are done.
To make the cartridge as sturdy as possible one is tempted to make one that fits snugly in the chamber but with fouling etc. I guess there ought to be some slack. Still, using two rounds of paper or thicker paper would help making the cartridge more rigid. As long as it is nitrated that is.
Some stupid questiens at the end: Where does primers and cardboard discs end up? Do they come out the muzzle or will they fall out from the chamber when the bolt is pulled back?
My knowledge on the subject is still only theoretical...
JJ
Best når det smeller!

14. December 2010 kl. 14:54:26
Reply #30

Fabian23


Yes, the Berdan primer is placed upside down with the inside facing the needle.  This also has the advantage that the needle needs to penetrate less into the chamber since a primer is shorter than a percussion cap, theoretically reducing corrosion of the needle.

Actually nitrating the paper is not essential, I don't even think the original ones were.  The standard paper used nowadays is good old brown parcel paper.  Rigidity is achieved primcipally by firmly pressing the powder in the "case".  

It is best to make the cartridge as straight as possible behind the bullet.  The space around the cartridge in the chamber allows the paper to swirl and burn more thoroughly.  Any paper is usually blasted out of the barrel although I have sometimes found that the base remains behind.
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

16. December 2010 kl. 13:14:32
Reply #31

jæger justnæs


I have made a couple of test cartridges filled with polenta just to see how they fit and try if they ignite. So far it's looking good.
I found that a wooden ramrod from an old rifle would do nicely to form the paper; it gives a slightly conical shape and I can seat the primed discs from the rear end. I use a pair of scissors to trim lenght and make the flaps that backs up the primer. Front end will be trimmed later on.
I now have som primed cartridges ready for loading; I only have one mould for .45 other than roundballs, it's a shortened moult that casts 300 grains flat nose bullets. Now I need to make some for the preliminary testing. If this will work OK I will post a detailed description. Not necessary to show it unless I can come to some sort of conclusion.
Here is one of the test cartridges, using a too heavy 500 grain bullet. But for testing it's allright. One can see it is slightly conical but still smaller than the chamber; it has expanded upon rupture caused by the primer being set off.

Using the 300 grain flat nose bullet I have a capacity of approximately 110 grains of powder. I only use Wano and will go for a charge around 70 grains Wano PP, leaving sufficient room for cardboard discs and filler/lubrication.

JJ
Best når det smeller!