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Author Topic: Swedish navy carbine  (Read 21497 times)

23. April 2010 kl. 0:21:53
Read 21497 times

Red Crow


I have recently bought an original percussion muzzleloader manufactured by P J Malherbe in the Belgian town of Liège. According to the Belgian website www.littlegun.be, these guns were manufactured for the Swedish navy. You can find photographs of this rifle at the top and at the bottom of this page:

 http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m%20o/a%20malherbe%20fr.htm

The rifle in the photographs at the bottom of the page on the littlegun site has serial number 629, my rifle has number 604. It shoots .60 caliber Minié bullets. I will post photographs of my rifle soon.  

I have come across photographs of an almost identical full length musket version of this rifle which was apparently manufactured under licence by Husqvarna. Does anybody know why the rifles were made by Malherbe and the muskets by Husqvarna?

23. April 2010 kl. 7:36:47
Reply #1

Fabian23


Goede morgen Red Crow!

I used to have one of these, maybe you have it now (I traded it for a 2-band Snider with Arthur Dorst 3-4 years ago) but I can't remember the serial number it had.  Bayonets for these can also be found.

It was my understanding that the initial contract was with Malherbe and then Husqvarna took over
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

23. April 2010 kl. 8:16:31
Reply #2

Red Crow


Goede morgen to you too Fabian23!

Since you owned one of these rifles,do you have any additional technical and historical information such as rate of twist, year of manufacture, etc.? Any additional information you may have would be welcome. And what loads did you use? I am currently using 40 grains of no.3 Swiss powder, but I have only taken it to the (25-metre) range three times so far, so I'm still in the experimental phase, so to speak.  

By the way, are you coming to the Horst Western Weekend in August? If so, we could meet up and 'shoot the shit', if you know what I mean. In fact, if you've been to any of the Horst weekends in the past ten years or so we have in all probability met already.

23. April 2010 kl. 13:41:55
Reply #3

Fabian23


I never got round to properly researching and shooting mine so I can't really help. You could try contacting Per Holmback at www.holmback.se, he mainly does bayonets but I'm sure he can tell you more about the related arms.

Are you using ball or minié?

Ref Horst: I'm on stand-by for the imminent arrival of baby n°2 so no shooting events for me for a good while :-|
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

23. April 2010 kl. 16:49:34
Reply #4

Red Crow


I have found a lot of information on the Swedish army museum website (Armémuseum):

"Loppets rel. längd: 54 kaliber. Fyra räfflor. Räffelstigning: Ett varv på 222,75 cm. Kompressionskula: d: 15,13 mm, l: 24,35 mm, vikt: 31,87 g. Krutladdning: 5,31 g. Utgångshastighet: 1 225 fot = 368,82 m/sek (eller 369 m/sek).Pipan är brungjord. Det åttkantiga kammarstycket har en längd av 56 mm men det långa fältet är runt. Kornet är av järn och sitter på en klack, placerad 23 mm bakom pipmynningen, som också tjänstgör som bajonettklack. Siktet sitter på en 15 mm bred järnring, som går kring pipan 23,6 cm framför pipans bakände. Ringen hålls fast av en skruv som sitter på ringens undersida."

I can understand some of it but not nearly enough.

Anyway, this (m/1855)rifle was built to shoot Minié bullets.

Congratulations on the imminent arrival of No.2

23. April 2010 kl. 20:49:54
Reply #5

Øyvind F.

Administrator
Run the text through Google translate. You can even get the result in Dutch.

Here's a slightly edited version of the result:

Barrel length: 54 caliber. Four rifles. Twist: 1 in 222.75 cm. Compression Ball: diam: 15.13 mm, length: 24.35 mm, weight: 31.87 g. Powder Charge: 5.31 g Muzzle velocity: 1225 ft = 368.82 m / sec (or 369 m / sec). The barrel is browned. The octagonal chamber part has a length of 56 mm, but the long bar is around. The front sight is of iron and sits on a heel, positioned 23 mm behind the muzzle, who also serves as bayonet lug. The sights are on a 15 mm wide iron ring that goes around the pipe 23.6 cm in front of the rear barrel. The ring is secured by a screw located on the underside of the ring.

I'll check whether I have more information about the carbine in my books.
Øyvind F. - forum admin
Ta også en kikk på kammerlader.no.

24. April 2010 kl. 9:05:09
Reply #6

Fabian23


I note that it says it shot a compression bullet, this is slightly different than a minié, more like the modern maxiball.  I have had a compression bullet mould made for my Swiss 1851 federal rifle, the Austrian Lorenz also used this sort of bullets.
« Last Edit: 24. April 2010 kl. 9:06:44 by 701 »
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

25. April 2010 kl. 0:09:00
Reply #7

Red Crow


Fabian23: Yes, you are quite right, it originally shot a compression bullet which, as far as I've been able to figure out, was replaced by a minie ball after just a few years.

Oyvind:

Thank you very much for the translation. It confirms what I thought it said, namely that the rate of twist was 1 in 222.75 cm which equals 1 in 87.69 inches. To the best of my knowledge this type of short rifle (for instance two-band enfields) usualy had a 1 in 48 inches rate of twist. I thought only patch and ball rifles had a really slow rate of twist like 1 inch in 70. I'm a bit surprised a 1 in 87 inch rate of twist would be fast enough to stabilise a .60 caliber 613-grain minie ball. Hope you will be able to tell me more on the subject.

Thanks guys,

I really appreciate your input and expertise

Georg

25. April 2010 kl. 21:13:29
Reply #8

Øyvind F.

Administrator
The early Enfield two-band rifles had a 1 in 78" rate of twist, as did the three-banders. It was later abandoned for the 1 in 48 though. My 1 in 78" twist two-bander shoots very well with a short minié bullet.

The compression bullet was replaced by a minié bullet in 1865, by the way. Unfortunately, these rifles have a poor reputation regarding accuracy, probably because of the slow twist. I would suggest you try the shortest possible ball you can find.

Here are some examples of compression  bullets:

Øyvind F. - forum admin
Ta også en kikk på kammerlader.no.

26. April 2010 kl. 14:12:39
Reply #9

Red Crow


Hi Øyvind,

Thanks for the info. So far, accuracy (at 25 meters) with this rifle has been fine, which is just as well as none of the major reloading brands,(Lyman, RCBS, Lee)seem to carry a .60 bullet mould. When I next see him I'll ask my gunsmith where he got the mould that came with the gun. It would be good to get a second one, different one just to be able to compare results with different kinds of bullets.  

Cheers,

Georg

26. April 2010 kl. 15:44:09
Reply #10

jæger justnæs


Congratulations with your carbine!
I have heard that Hunters House in Copenhagen
can provide bullet moulds for the M1855 and I assume
you can use the same for your carbine.
Look for these datails in the above mentioned link:
15,6  x  22,5  M55 Svensk

I wish you the best of luck!
JJ
Best når det smeller!

27. April 2010 kl. 17:09:10
Reply #11

Red Crow


JJ

Thanks for the tip, I've checked out their website and they do indeed sell moulds for the m/1855.

I will pay them a visit as soon as I have time (it's a 750-kilometer drive from where I live).

Georg

25. January 2011 kl. 8:56:55
Reply #12

Fabian23


Things have gone full circle and I find myself with a M1855 naval carbine again like you, complete with bayonet.  As usual with these it is in mint condition.

Did you end up getting a Svensk55 mould?  I emailed them and they have some in stock so I will probably order one.
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]

20. April 2011 kl. 20:35:19
Reply #13

Red Crow


Hi Fabian23,

I was kind of strapped for cash for a while so I did not get round to ordering the M55 mould until last week. I received it yesterday, so my complements to Hunters House for their quick service. I have yet to try it out.

By the way,where did you find your Malherbe? I thought they were quite rare. Was it expensive?


Cheers,

Red Crow

21. April 2011 kl. 8:38:07
Reply #14

Fabian23


I exchanged it for something else so I can't really comment on value, I got it from Bolk Antiek in Tilburg.

The H-H mould is very very good, it casts perfectly.  I was not really expecting the minié to stabilise but it does.  In my barrel it is a perfect minié fit to the barrel, sliding down with just a tiny bit of friction.
Give me iron, steel and wood!  Tupperware guns are for losers!

My website, growing entry by entry:http://www.militarygunsofeurope.eu[/url]