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English => General => Topic started by: Dusty Texian on 10. June 2016 kl. 17:03:05

Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 10. June 2016 kl. 17:03:05
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160610170018575af22270fb4.jpg)Hello All. I have just had the good fortune of finding and purchasing a what I thik is an 1821/41/51 Kongsberg Jaeger rifle . The rifle has just arrived and I have done no more than give it a good look over. The first thing noticable is the as attic found condition, Not dirty but not cleaned. The brass is tarnished the barrel and other steel parts are mostly gray , with the lock being a brighter pollish . The wood is rather nice and appears to be birch and has an aged dark color. The sliding wood patch box cover is matching and is numbered as the other parts to this rifle . I did measure the bore at the muzzle after a solvent cleaning of the grease coating and found a very bright shiney bore and 5 five rifle groove bore . @ .720" . I was ver impressed with the bore condition. The pillar can be seen and appears to be in great shiney and pointed condition , the rear of the chamber is shiney and clean . The only parts missing that I can see are the front sight. The front brass muzzle endcap. And the chamber scraper and cleaning worm are missing from the wooden box in the stock. The rifle does have the graduated rear sight , the dog catch on the lock , and the sling attachments forend and trigger gaurd . I will try and post a photo of the rifle when I get some new photograph's taket . For now I will try and post the photograph from the advertisement that promted me to purchase this fine old Kongsberg Jaeger Rifle . Thank You for your interest , I would like to hear from anyone that cares to contribute . Ron Wehmeyer
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 11. June 2016 kl. 10:55:06
Hello All. I have a few questions about this Kongsberg rifle , as noted the rifle is missing the  brass fore end cap, looking at the rifle stock and barrel , I do not see how the brass cap would have been held onto the barrel and wood. If anyone may know how these were held in place I would greatly appreciate the information. I am also looking for the front sight blade height/and thickness measurement . I will make a new front sight when I can get measurements.  Thank You , Ron Wehmeyer ,,,DT .
Title: Kongberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 11. June 2016 kl. 15:54:07
Here is another photograph of the Kongsberg rifle . The rifle is in very good condition for as old as it is. A bump here and there but no harm. Ron.
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160611155338575c3402a149d.jpg)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 11. June 2016 kl. 16:26:24
Hello and congratulations on a wonderful rifle.
I can give you the information in a couple days when I am feeling a bit better. I have 2 of them with one original bayonet. And also a source for a reproduction worm, they might also have the other parts.
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 11. June 2016 kl. 16:33:28
Here is the parts source, looks like they have all the parts.  http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/danish_norwegian_arms/(891).htm
Title: Kongberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 11. June 2016 kl. 16:44:42
Thank you for your reply, and offer. I will get in touch with the Rifle Shop on Monday. Glad to know you have two of these rifles. Have you shot them? If so do you recommend a bullet mould? I do have .700 Round Balls . Will try them . After I install the front sight and get a chamber scraper. Hope you get well, Ron.
Title: Kongberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 11. June 2016 kl. 16:49:48
Another look at the missing foren cap.Ron(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160611164932575c411c45dbe.jpg)
Title: Kongberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 11. June 2016 kl. 22:18:57
Hi Ron,

I do not shoot mine as I feel that they are too much of a treasure and should be preserved as best I can, just too much of a risk to damage such a fine piece of history. Although I do shoot some of my collection but they are the somewhat more common guns.
Many Norwegian collectors feel that these guns should stay in Norway as they are part of their history and culture. And I cannot blame them for feeling that way, hopefully they are saving their money to buy my collection when it is time to pass them on. Always nice to know something you enjoy is going to a good home.  ;-)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 12. June 2016 kl. 17:13:49
Mr. John , I do respect your comment on not firing the old rifle . Some feel that way. I do not agree , I am no stranger to loading and firing very old rifles . I have an extensive collection of 1876 and 1873 Winchesters  among others that are fired and hunted with on ocassion. After yrs of using these old rifles as they were intended to be used I have found no harm done to the firearms. My first priority towards an antique firearm is its best interest even if that may cause me a financial loss, I would never do anything knowingly to hurt or destroy a piece of history .I hope to pass along all of my antique firearms in good or better than found condition, to the next caretaker . But at the present I will enjoy them as they were built for in the hunting fields and on the shooting range . They are still making history! I do appreciate your response and comments .      Respectfully  Ron Wehmeyer ,,,DT
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jæger justnæs on 13. June 2016 kl. 7:22:20
I'm pretty sure this is not a Kongsberg 1821. The stock is to be birch, your shows clear signs of being made from beech. Altso, the "tail" on the lockplate does not fit in. I'm guessing it's a Danish M1803 or similar with an S-shaped sideplate that has been in Norwegian service and converted to percussion/pillar breech/new bayonet at Kongsberg. Hence the K markings.
Again; your lockplate does not look like the 1791 (https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_gevar_view.php?editid1=25) or 1803 (https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_gevar_view.php?editid1=35) either. Please compare yours with an M1821/41/51 at Trond's webside. (http://norskevaapen.no/?p=561)

Regards, Tor
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 13. June 2016 kl. 10:19:25
You are right , the side-plate is (S) shape . I noticed this , that it was not like the others I have seen in photograph's . The (S) style side plate does not cover the I think trigger pin. I will continue to study this rifle , as I find it most interesting.There are some numbers that are stamped near the trigger guard into the wood , I will post a picture when the sun is up . I hope you look at these numbers and tell me if they mean anything to you. This rifle has a fit and feel /balance that fits me well. I am seriously thinking of building a duplicate made from new materials of course. I would not change a thing caliber included. I think this type rifle would serve me well. As I primarily hunt big game here.Thank You for sharing your knowledge with me . RW (https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160613101838575e887ea32c4.jpg)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 13. June 2016 kl. 19:30:15
Greetings Tor,

I am very glad someone with more knowledge than me has come to save the day.
You are correct about the lockplate but if is not a 1821 what do you think they can be? As it appears both of mine are the same model also. Also strange that at one time they were fitted for the 1801 bayonet.

(http://[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/CGM96/DSC03193%20Large_zpsnuk40xrl.jpg)

(http://[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/CGM96/DSC03194%20Large_zpsn1ozxyhw.jpg)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 13. June 2016 kl. 19:36:02
Picture of barrel markings....

(http://[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/CGM96/DSC03195%20Large_zpsogtmnsvl.jpg)

(http://[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/CGM96/DSC03196%20Large_zpsvwdida6m.jpg)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 13. June 2016 kl. 19:39:50
Dusty,

The front band is held on by a screw.

(http://[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/CGM96/DSC03197%20Large_zpsgzlsykc3.jpg)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 13. June 2016 kl. 19:59:33
John Thank You very much, that is most helpful .RW
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 13. June 2016 kl. 20:00:33
John those are two very fine Jaeger rifles.RW
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 13. June 2016 kl. 20:13:10
A picture of my barrel numbers. RW (https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160613201245575f13bd730a9.jpg)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jke on 13. June 2016 kl. 20:19:46
Hi Dusty,

The main reason I don't shoot them is I am afraid of the wood cracking, I am sure that the metal parts would hold up well.
And I am not a fanatic about it, just a worry wart. :-D
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 13. June 2016 kl. 20:40:06
Mr. John understood. The light colored stock Jaeger looks to be near as issued condition. While the other looks like it has taken on the dark color as mine has. Note 28-3/4" Swamped barrel. RW .
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jæger justnæs on 13. June 2016 kl. 21:25:34
Really nice pieces, you guys!
On the latest picture of yours Dusty Texian it is obvious that it has the correct lock for a 1791/1803. It was the dog catch which concealed the cannelures that pulled my leg. Let me take a moment to study the pics and see if I can work something out :-)

Edit: The remains from the M1801 bayonet fits like a glove, since the M1791 was converted and called M1801 and the M1803 came with the M1801 bayonet as well. I'm a bit uncertain what differs the two models, some minor details for sure. Maybe the ramrod pipes are more "flared" on the M1803?
If you won't mind - here's a picture of my M1803 replica:
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160613213549575f2735ef7e5.jpg)
Looks quite awesome with the bayonet attached but was (and is) pretty awkward to shoot with.
Tried a few shots with in mounted on saturday. Great fun but i didn't shoot as straight as without ;-)
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 13. June 2016 kl. 22:22:18
Very nice Jaeger, what caliber is your rifle ? Yes it does look formidable with the bayonet in place. I am sure that it does feel awkward with the bayonet extended.RW
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Staffy on 13. June 2016 kl. 22:44:45
Hi all,
     Perhaps an enquiry of the Norwegian Army Museum would be profitable. I have found them to be most helpful. The markings clearly have some meaning. There is a 'contact' heading on their web page. Good luck in your investigations.
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: jæger justnæs on 14. June 2016 kl. 5:35:58
Thank you, DT. The barrel is a standard Colerain Hessian .62 caliber barrel. Only minor diferrences to the original. The rest is a group buy from The Rifle Shoppe. Mind you, back then it took a lot of time and money before we received all the parts. I don't know what the current delivery status is...

Let's see if we can work out the barrel markings. Maybe an idea to post pictures and what the text might say one pipe at a time. Probably somebody that know. TGhe first thing is to find if they are og Dasnish or Norwegian origin. Some may have both.

The good fellow Trond had visited the chat and asked me to post a couple of pictures. He is convinced that your rifles are based on the M1803. The sideplate is distinct for the M1803 and M1807 Kyhls (the one with the hammer/frizzen spring on the inside of the lockplate).
From the top: M1803 - M1803/41 - M1803/41/51
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160614052744575f95d003d92.jpg)

The other side, reverse order
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160614052812575f95ecbf93e.jpg)

Best regards, Tor
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 14. June 2016 kl. 12:46:27
Thank You Staffy , I will look into contacting the museum.DT.
Title: Kongsberg Jaeger rifle
Post by: Dusty Texian on 14. June 2016 kl. 13:04:27
Thank You for all your effort Jaeger Juntnaes you have been a great help. After looking at the photographs you have posted I must agree the Jaeger rifle that I have looks to be a match with the 1803/41/51 . I did remove the lock and look behind the lock plate and found a very small mark /stamp, I will have to enlarge this and try to identify the mark. This may tell the lock's origin.  Again Thank You for all of your help. Respectfully Ron Wehmeyer ,,,,DT (https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/20160614130338576000aa092f1.jpg)
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Dusty Texian on 26. June 2016 kl. 14:02:51
Thank's to the help from others here , It appears that my Jeager rifle may be a Danish / Norwegian 1803-41/51  model. My question is about the rear sight. The sight has markings on it 300/400 and so on up to and including 600. What measurement was used in that time for this sight? 300 = what today? Another question I have , does anyone know what the original bullet weight and powder charge would have been for this . 72 cal. rifle? Thank You in advance . DT .
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Øyvind F. on 26. June 2016 kl. 14:19:48
The sight settings are in Norwegian alen (ells). One Norwegian ell is .6275 metres or .686 yards. 300 ells is thus 188 metres or 205.8 yards.
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Dusty Texian on 27. June 2016 kl. 11:47:53
Thank You Oyvind F. This information will help during the range test of this old rifle . I will order a copy of your book , From Musket to Metalic cartridge today . I am in search for loading information about the bullet and powder charge that was originally used in this rifle .DT
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: jæger justnæs on 27. June 2016 kl. 18:35:14
Hello again, Dusty.
That picture futher up, is it taken at The Alamo?
Regarding the bullet design; they used the same bullets as the kammerlader rifles.
Please take a look at this thread on the Norwegian forum. (http://www.forum.svartkrutt.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=20028)
I think I have read that the charge was sligtly lower than that used in the kammerladers. Will have to come back to a link...if I can find it.

Regards, Tor
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: jæger justnæs on 27. June 2016 kl. 18:45:20
You might find these two threads concerning 18-lødig paper cartridges interesting.
Link 1 (http://www.forum.svartkrutt.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=19341#p19341)
Link 2 (http://www.forum.svartkrutt.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=8768)
So far, all I can say that I think I have heard that the load differed from kammerlader loads but I cannot offer you a source yet.

Tor
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Øyvind F. on 27. June 2016 kl. 18:46:48
The powder charge was 71 grains of coarse rifle/musket powder versus 96 grains for the kammerlader rifles.

The paper cartridge also differed. The muzzle-loading rifles used the first cartridge from the left:

(http://www.svartkrutt.net/artikler/bilder/kulekammer/kulekammer1stor.jpg)

The middle cartridge is simlar to the type used by the kammerlader rifles until 1861 when a new model based on the British Pritchett cartridge was adopted.
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Dusty Texian on 27. June 2016 kl. 20:54:03
Hello Jaeger Justnaes, Yes Sir, that is my Grand daughter and myself standing in front of the old Alamo in San Antonio Texas.The effort and information in helping me to get this old Jaeger rifle shooting again is very much appreciated . By the way after seeing your Flint Jaeger, I have really been considering a contemporary build myself.  Good Shooting ,,,DT
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Dusty Texian on 27. June 2016 kl. 20:58:36
Hello Oyvind F. Again Thank you for the valuable information you have provided. I have been told by my Elders , That if you want answers , Go to the man that has them. Looks like I have came to the right place. Good Shooting ,,,DT
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Dusty Texian on 21. August 2016 kl. 21:27:33
(https://forum.svartkrutt.net/images/en-uploaded/2016082121243157ba1c0fa6435.jpg)Hello All. Since my last post I have managed to make and install a brass nose-cap and front sight for my M-1803/41/51 . I built these two parts using the photographs posted by the kind folks here on forum. I have machine turned and am in the final stages of making the copies of the cleaning worm and chamber/pillar scraper. I will post photos of these two items when they are complete.  I have had a chance to shoot the old Jaeger rifle with ball-n-patch and it was suprisingly accurate. I am still thinking of purchasing a bullet mould for this rifle . Hope all are well, So long for now.  DT
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Daryl Sapergia on 07. December 2016 kl. 3:28:39
DT- what is the groove and bore diameter of your rifle, please?
 
In the larger bore sizes, we've had very good luck/accuracy with paper ctgs. patched tight to the bore using round balls, with the base or tied tail of the paper getting shoved and seated down hard on the powder, the snug paper patched ball above

We are getting accuracy rivaling tight cloth patched round balls.

Do these rifles have the Tige' or Delvinge chambers meant for slugging up the ball to the groove diameter with 3 blows of the rifle's loading rod.  

The US Military purchased many of those types of rifles, back in the 1850's, I've read.  The Tige' had a post that projected up into the bore for slugging up the ball with repeat blows of the rod. The Delvinge had a shouldered powder chamber against which the ball was hammered against.
Neither of these would allow for a paper ctg. I would imagine.

Curiosity call.
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Øyvind F. on 08. December 2016 kl. 6:45:39
All the Norwegian /41/51 conversions have a pointy tige or pillar in the bottom of the chamber. The jäger rifles were loaded with a patched roundball in their original flintlock configuration, and also after the conversion to percussion after 1841. When they were converted to pillar-breech rifles after 1851 they were loaded with the 18 bore kammerlader bullet. The paper cartridge was slightly different from that of the kammerlader though. The load was 71 grains of rifle powder, as opposed to 96 grains in the kammerlader.
Title: 1803-41/51
Post by: Daryl Sapergia on 11. December 2016 kl. 23:58:02
Thanks for that information- very helpful!!
Daryl