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Author Topic: Jarmann 3 band single shot rifle  (Read 23556 times)

04. March 2016 kl. 13:27:45
Read 23556 times

Staffy


I have been offered an example of the above.It has a crown on the base/swell of the bolt, a large K on the l/h side hex knox form, bayonet lug and sling swivels on the middle band and front of trigger guard. Can anyone enlighten me on what it may be?
Does the bayonet lug rule out a hunting version? Regards, Staffy.

04. March 2016 kl. 20:32:16
Reply #1

jæger justnæs


Any pictures, please?
Civil conversion? Blocked tube magazine/cartridge elevator to confirm with hunting regulations in the early days of BPC -only single shot rifles were allowed.
Best når det smeller!

05. March 2016 kl. 1:41:08
Reply #2

Staffy


Hi J-J,

   Am having trouble up loading images, which are on an email and a flash drive.

   Will try another time, but the rifle does not have any evidence of the cut off being removed on the receiver or stock. Also the stock does appear to be too slender for a tube magazine

   Maybe I'll have to take a punt on this. Staffy.

05. March 2016 kl. 6:51:23
Reply #3

Øyvind F.

Administrator
Adding pictures for Staffy:




Øyvind F. - forum admin
Bøker jeg har skrevet.

05. March 2016 kl. 8:39:19
Reply #4

jæger justnæs


Nice and slender and likely an early Jarmann. Perhaps from the trial series?
The bolt "hammer" looks a lot slimmer than what one normally see, hence my guess on an early build. There was also some experimenting with a 9,5-ish caliber. You might want to take some measures:-)
You might find this thread interesting, a few of the first builds shown here.
If the rifle is affordable, I'd say go for it!

Regards, Tor
Best når det smeller!

12. March 2016 kl. 4:07:43
Reply #5

Staffy


Thanks Gentlemen,

      - for your help and information. The link showing the tiger stripe on the stock to nr.5 is magnificent, and the final post by AKS dated 15.12.09 is most interesting.

     Am I right to assume the Joint Rifle Commission took delivery of 80 examples (M. 1878?), with 25 being sent to Norway for proving and an estimated 200 being built?

     I have paid for the rifle, but it is interstate, some 900kms to travel to get to me, but when to hand will strip and photo.

     What particular dimensions/measurements would be of interest to the Forum. Remember I'm a novice in the Norse/Swedish arena and am open to guidance. Only hope it is what it seems to be!

     Cheers, Staffy.

13. March 2016 kl. 11:25:52
Reply #6

jæger justnæs


Let's hope it is what it appears to be, congratulations upon the buy :-)
After what I gather from Mr. Hanevik's book Norwegian Military Rifles after 1867 the 1878 single shot seies were not made at Kongsberg but the barrel might be a replacement. Look for tiny numbering on the top of the receiver. I'll see if I can find some more info.

Regards, Tor
Best når det smeller!

17. March 2016 kl. 6:27:47
Reply #7

Staffy


Hi All,

     Some more photos of 3 band. It does not appear to have the Swedish mark on the bolt, but has a K on the hexagonal form to the barrel and an 8 on the cocking piece.. Sorry, trouble with file size, will try alternative again. Maybe need lessons in manipulating computers!!






« Last Edit: 17. March 2016 kl. 6:40:00 by 22318 »

18. March 2016 kl. 1:03:47
Reply #8

Staffy


Pity the receiver appears to have been polished and is bereft of marks. Otherwise it all looks original, but I stand to be corrected. There are no stamps/marks in the stock bed nor on the underside of the metal parts. The barrel, barrel bands/bayonet lug, sights, trigger guard and butt plate do not show signs of refurbishment and are in good order.
However, at the price paid I can't complain. But it would have been nice to find an example which had not been interfered with.

18. March 2016 kl. 9:41:35
Reply #9

jæger justnæs


I still think this might be one of the earliest trial rifles. The barrel might have been replaced at Kongsberg due to heavy wear or other causes. I have linked this threat on the Norwegian forum but so far no news. Although, another of the single shot rifle has been added in the Jarmann thread.

Regards, Tor
Best når det smeller!

22. March 2016 kl. 15:58:55
Reply #10

Mauser


Small Caliber Jarmann Rifles
In 1874, it was discovered in Sweden that the M 1867 Remington rifles were the most inefficient military rifles in Europe. The matter had been known already at the time when selecting the Remington guns for army use. Evidently, the decision was influenced by money.
In 1878, the commission decided that 50 rifles in the cal. of 10.15 x 61 R based on the bolt lock mechanism designed by Jarmann, should be manufactured for troop trials. 25 guns were given to each country.
Paavo

24. March 2016 kl. 8:45:46
Reply #11

Bernt


Hi

Very nice and interesting Jarmann. It appears to be one of the singleshot trial rifles from 1878.

Here's some from norwegian museums. Your's have probably been marked just like these (# 8 maybe?).

http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022701421

http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022701043

The silver plaque is described in Haneviks book. It reads something like: "1000 shots without remark. tried by the norwegian / swedish riflecommitee and only one (1878) aproved".


The 9 mm Jarmanns were a series of trial carbines made in the 1880's.
here's a couple made at Akershus arsenal.
http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022701745
http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022700968

25. March 2016 kl. 11:30:43
Reply #12

Staffy


Hi Bernt,
          The links are great, but while the stock on mine is similar to the Jarmann 1881, #1436, the action is more like the 1877, #1315, except the cocking piece seems to be narrower.
          It would appear the 1881 has a shortened stock compared to the 1877. See the position of the rear sling swivel and length of the comb, possibly due to the change of the different style of butt plate.
          My contact at the Museum, who is most generous in his response to my enquiries, is away at present, but has promised to check with the examples they hold.
          I do hope we will eventually get to a reasonably confident answer to this puzzle.
          How it came to be in Australia is unlikely to be determined. Thanks again, Staffy.

25. March 2016 kl. 11:34:35
Reply #13

Staffy


Just to clarify - it is the bolt head that differs. Perhaps action was the wrong word to use. Cheers, Staffy.

09. April 2016 kl. 12:04:16
Reply #14

Staffy


Just an update - haven't gone to sleep. Enquiries are progressing but the lack of Proof/usual  marks is something of a quandary.
    The rifle's configuration appears to be the same as those illustrated in "digitaltmuseum.se" vide, Inventory #30511 and #30088. Access the site, enter/search Jarmann and view those titled Gevar fm/1878-79 under the above inventory numbers.
    Will keep posted as more information comes to hand, but thanks to all who have commented/contributed on/to this post.          Cheers, Staffy.

03. May 2016 kl. 2:52:22
Reply #15

Staffy


Hi all,
      This rifle still poses a mystery, but it can be said with confidence it is a Gevar f/m 1878-79 model.The lack of usual marks is the puzzle.
      Mr K E Hanevik, who was approached by Mr Gjermud Fjeld, suggests it is a Trials Model but notes the lack of the C under the Crown on the barrel. However, he is positive the K on the barrel is not Kongsberg and suggests it is an unknown mark, the barrel having been changed at some point.
      Mr A Erstorp has compared photographs of the subject rifle with those held in the Swedish Army Museum and advises it is comparable with the prototype Model 1878-79, inventory number 30088, except for the marking.
     Seems that is as far as we can get, unless someone within the forum has more information on the remaining 200 rifles not taken in by the Joint Rifle Commission, which presumably ended up on the civilian market. How were they marked?
     Failing that avenue of enquiry, the remaining conclusion is that at some time the rifle was re-barrelled and the original markings removed.
     In any event, I think it quite proper to state the rifle is an example of the Model 1878-79 Jarmann, whatever its parentage and what may have been done to it in the meanwhile.
     I'm sorry at present there is no definitive conclusion to the enquiry.
     My thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion.   Staffy.
     p.s.One of my friends has a M1860 Kammerlader, but it has the Lund conversion. If there is an interest in this, serial number etc., I can post some photos, when he returns from holiday.

06. May 2016 kl. 8:16:54
Reply #16

jæger justnæs


Well done research, Staffy.
Now you have the words from experienced people rather than our guesstimations ;-)
The small mystery concerning the lack of numbering and the K may be solved some day. Anayway, enjoy your nice M1878/79 and be happy.

We would welcome a M1860/67 Lunds conversion thread on the forum. Is it the military (brass bands and butt cap) or shooting society version (iron bands and butt cap)?

Regards Tor
Best når det smeller!

06. May 2016 kl. 21:57:43
Reply #17

Staffy


The m1860 has brass furniture. The owner is in Europe at present but should be back in about four weeks. Will get onto photographing it then. Thanks for your encouragement Tor.  Staffy.

09. July 2016 kl. 4:50:59
Reply #18

Staffy


As can be detected during this thread, the actual number of Trials rifles has caused me some confusion.
    However, Mr Fjeld in quoting from Mr Hanevik's book has made this somewhat clearer.
    It appears that initially 80 trials rifles were produced by Carl Gustafs in 1878, with 25 being sent to Norway, the balance being retained for trials by Sweden.
    During 1879 another 100 rifles were manufactured, which were shared equally between the two countries. Further, a additional limited number of individual rifles were manufactured. By Autumn 1879 nearly 200 rifles were available.
    Records of production and serial numbers are incomplete, but the highest serial number reported is 203. This rifle could possibly have been made in 1880.
    To add confusion, later, some of the trials rifles were converted for use in the magazine trials in the early 1880's.
    Other Jarmann rifles appear to have been made in the early 1880's for both Jarmann, privately, and the Swedish Authorities. But again their details and number remain obscure.
    I trust the above makes things somewhat clearer, but it is not surprising there are varying statements on the numbers and production details in commentaries on the subject.
    On another note, the fellow with the Kammerlader/Lund is now back. So I hope to catch up with him in the next week or so.
    I am indebted to Messrs. Hanevik, Fjeld and Erstorp for their kind and patient help in my quest. Kindest regards to all who have contributed to this thread.

28. July 2016 kl. 10:51:31
Reply #19

jæger justnæs


Very good information there, Staffy.
Will it spit flames within long? ;-)
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